Show Notes

Kayla: Welcome back to The Designer Practice Podcast, and I’m your host, Kayla Das.

Have you ever worked at an agency where there was an amazing leader, but they weren’t a manager? Or maybe, even more relatable, have you ever worked at an agency where your manager wasn’t quite up for the leadership task?

Although the terms management and leadership are often used interchangeably in agencies. Managing isn’t the same as leading. How I define a manager is a person who you have to follow, whereas a leader is someone who you want to follow. And in an ideal world, this person would be the same.

As someone who had previously managed nonprofits, I can tell you that sometimes the line gets blurred, and I will say without a doubt, that I’ve certainly had my moments of being a pretty crappy leader. While I’ve also had some high points as well.

Fortunately, in today’s episode, Kathy Archer, leadership coach and author is going to break down the difference between management vs. leadership so that regardless of where you are on the organizational chart, you can show up as a good leader.

Hi Kathy, welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today.

Kathy: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Kayla: Kathy, before we dive into today’s episode, please introduce yourself, where you’re from, and tell us a little bit about your leadership journey.

Kathy: Thank you. I am Kathy Archer. I call myself a leadership development coach, leadership coach, executive coach. I primarily coach women leaders, and I am from Alberta. I know you are as well. I say Northern Alberta, but by Northern Alberta. I mean like six hours north of Edmonton. So, I’m Northern Alberta.

I have been in leadership roles for many, many years. I spent about 25 years in the nonprofit sector. Many of those in leadership roles. I started out in group homes, adolescents, kids that you know that had been in trouble with the law, apprehended from their families, things like that. Moved into family support, disability work, and just spent a lot of years doing the leadership roles of managing and leading the people in those positions.

Kayla: Amazing. And not-for-profit is its own world. I mean, I guess managing and being a leader in any kind of structure can be difficult, but obviously our experience is not-for-profit and it has its own unique challenges for sure.

Kathy: A hundred percent.

Kayla: So first of all, what’s one moment when you realized you were managing and not leading?

Kathy: I very vividly remember the moment. I was sitting at my desk whispering into my phone with tears streaming down my face, and let me back you up. I had been leading, running this organization, this team quite confidently doing a good job, until the arrival of a large new contract that left me scrambling to keep up. Overnight the stakes got big, real fast. Big increase in budget. More staff, more meetings, more travel, more sites, more accountability, more stress, more sleepless nights.

And I felt like I was trying to balance work and workload and leadership and life, and I didn’t have the skills, nor did my organization have the resources to manage that big expansion that felt like it happened overnight. And so I did what most leaders do. I doubled down. I worked harder. I stayed later. I made decisions on the fly, many of them, which weren’t very good decisions. I started not listening to my staff in the same way that I’d always done, and they felt it, and they’d been always able to trust me. But now I wasn’t keeping true to my word, following through my promises. And I had stopped asking for their input and ideas, and instead I was just railroading through with my own.

So, the staff told me what they thought. They said on my performance appraisal, Kathy lacks integrity. Like ooof and then they hit me with a grievance. So, the staff filed a grievance against me. I didn’t know what to do. I mean, if truth be told, I was angry and, on my mind, I lashed out at them if only they would help me. They’re just out to get me. They’re trying to undermine me, all of this kind of stuff. But the truth was I didn’t know how to fix it, and my boss didn’t either. And so, he was the one that introduced me to coaching.

So here I was first coaching call, sitting there whispering because like thin walls, hoping nobody could hear me. And through his gentle questioning, he started to help me unravel my thoughts and I realized I wasn’t leading the way I wanted to lead.

I wasn’t being true to my values; I wasn’t sticking through to what I said I was going to do. And I realized I was what I call whacking moles, which to me is managing. You’re just putting out fires, crisis, just constantly dealing with whatever’s going on, but you’re not stepping back, looking at the big picture. You’re not helping the team and the organization and the program get to where it needs to go.

And so it was that moment that I’m like, oh, I’ve stepped back from being a leader. No wonder they think I’m lacking integrity.

Kayla: You know, I love that you’re sharing that, and I’m going to be sharing something that I have never shared on the podcast.

I can tell you that one of my, I don’t even say one of my crappiest moments, a lot of my crappiest moments were when I was in middle management. And I felt like I was in a rock in a hard place. So, I really, truly believe staff, employees, independent contractors, whatever you call them, they are the integral piece to business success, and I’ve always believed that.

However, when you have a boss above you, it can be really challenging to manage. What can I do? If the agency policies was no using your cell phone while on the job. While I see the practicality of that, and I definitely understand it. Whenever I used to see employees on their phone I say, hey, you have to get off your phone. And always felt so icky doing that. And how this applies to leadership is as a leader, I feel like I should have did something different. I should have challenged the policies. And the truth is, I was kind of wishy-washy. That’s not leading right. Actually, if anything, it’s very confusing.

When I noticed that I was managing and not leading, that is definitely like multiple moments that really stand out in my mind that it didn’t follow my values, it didn’t follow what I believe. I believe there’s so many more important things.

Also, there was one time a staff member came to me after and said, Kayla, I have someone who’s passing away. And I didn’t want to tell you, but I already told them to put their phone away and then I felt so terrible. And that is where understanding that leading is being compassionate, having that understanding, even if you don’t know the whole story. And of course, you’re not going to ask every single person if you know they need to be on their phone. But I think that leading is more about the bigger picture and doing what you say instead of just saying what you say. Because the truth is, I’m probably in my office on my phone.

Kathy: Absolutely. There’s so many things I could hit on there, but I think the one thing that you’re talking about is. We often think about leadership as sort of the policies and the manual and the meetings and the things like that. Leadership is you and your values, your ethics, your morals, and I often use the same word you used icky. When you feel icky, something’s not aligned. And so as a leader, the managing is sort of what you’re doing. The leading is how you are doing it.

Another way I think of the difference is management is keeping the boat from tipping over, you got to keep people in the seats, you got to make sure payroll gets met and meet the client needs. But leadership is then taking that boat forward, like where are you going as a team? And so that’s that how part, and that comes back to who we are. And if you’re looking at the organization culture, which in your example, do we use our phones or not? Are we caring and compassionate people? If you’re looking at the organizational culture, that’s the how, which is equally as important, if not more so than the what.

Kayla: I agree a hundred percent. So how does the pressure to get everything done, because that is such a real thing for managers, but how does it keep managers from truly leading?

Kathy: To truly lead, you need to lead with intention. You need to slow down, think things through. Am I aligned with my values? Is this aligned with our organizational purpose and mission? Am I taking into account– when you were talking about the example with somebody who’s losing somebody. There’s often a balance that we forget about between task and relationship. We need to make sure that we’re moving the needle forward and getting things done and meeting our goals and doing all that kind of stuff. But we also have to care for our people.

And so, as a leader, we’re being intentional about that. Oftentimes what we do instead of being intentional is we’re just in reactionary mode. Back to whack and moles, right? Crisis, fire, meeting, email. Like we just get into that and we’re not slowing down to think about, okay, this is the fire in this moment. But is it really what I need to be working on today or this week? And will this fire have the same impact later on? Or again, back to your example, okay. Off the phones. And if you step back and you go, wait a minute, let me think this through. That doesn’t align with my values and actually it’s not impeding their work.

So instead of dealing with get off your phones, it’s. I actually want to go back and have a conversation with my manager about this rule that we have that maybe we could get rid of. It’s archaic or it doesn’t fit or we change it. And so leading helps us be more intentional and step back. And if we don’t create that space to think that pause because we are so busy, because we have so much going on.

And this is where often what happens for leaders and new leaders especially, is this imposter syndrome kicks in. I’m supposed to solve everybody’s problem, you know, answer every email, go to every meeting, do everything. And if I create space to think people are going to think I’m not doing my job. And yet that is the job of a leader, is the strategic, intentional thinking.

Kayla: I agree with you and I think this is where like those archaic policies, and if anyone has been in an agency that’s been around for, I don’t know, 20, 30, 40 years you can look at those policy manuals and really, they’re like 500 pages. And the reason is because every time an issue happens, there’s a new policy put in. Even if that policy actually contradicts a policy that was put in somewhere else.

It’s just there was this one-off situation and let’s create a policy so this never happens again. Going back to just cell phones. And like I say, I actually understand where that’s coming from because one, it doesn’t look great if you have clients coming in. Especially, if clients are coming in and you’re continuing to be on your phone playing a game or something like that.

But every policy is a spectrum, right? There’s being too strict with it and then there’s also being too loose with it as well. And that’s where a manager, which is what I did, would tell you, get off your phone. However, a leader would pull you aside, talk to you about it. Learn what is it about your phone that’s important. And it’s more compassion, it’s more understanding. That empathy piece.

And once you understand your, again, I’m going to say employees, independent contractors, whoever it is that works for you, that’s when they feel heard.

Kathy: I think that’s the problem that we have is we’re just reacting to the rule rather than looking at the how the rule is implemented. And who’s the, me implementing the rule.

I can still make sure that rules or policies are followed, but the way in which I do it is the key. And again, that comes back to creating those relationships and creating the culture. And the mission of the organization. We say all the time, oh, I want my workplace to be a good workplace and I want people to enjoy working here.

Okay. But when you snap at them, like every time something goes wrong, I’m thinking they’re not thinking it’s such a good place to work. But when you come back to them and say, hey, I noticed, tell me about it or can we talk about. It’s a way different way. And again, that’s that leadership piece. You’re taking your organization to a place of; this is the way we want to do things in our business.

I think about you work with health providers and somebody’s like, these are the appointments we have and this is it, and then somebody says, okay, but there’s this situation. And they’re like, okay, I can slide them in.

So, when does that happen and what creates the environment where it’s safe to say, Hey, there’s this situation. Because if they don’t have that psychological safety to even knock on the door and say, would you let somebody in? Then you’re not creating the environment that you say you are.

Kayla: I agree. And going back to getting things done is especially, and I’m going to say nonprofits and the public sector, there are so much to get done, right?

Like there’s very little funding, very little staff, very little of everything. And as a result, again, whether you’re a manager or a frontline staff, it can be overwhelming. So going back to even snapping getting off your phone it’s sometimes easier than pulling someone aside and really understanding. Just because it’s easier doesn’t mean that it’s right.

Kathy: A hundred percent.

Kayla: So how can leaders, regardless of where they are on the organizational chart, begin to make small, sustainable shifts into leadership?

Kathy: Grow themselves. From the inside out. So, what we were talking about in many of these examples is values, ethics, style, personality traits, strengths, if you want to develop your leadership and become a stronger leader. Leadership really is personal development. It really is the inner work, the inner growth, understanding things. Just the example you said a minute ago about the amount of work we have. We need to set boundaries. One of the things that was clear when staff said that I was lacking integrity was I said, family’s most important to me, and yet I’m the one staying late. I’m the one there on Sundays doing paperwork. I’m the one going on business trips and being gone way longer than I intended to be. I wasn’t balancing it, so I’m not walking my talk, which is integrity, right? What are my values, ethics, morals.

And so if you want to move into leadership, start getting clear about you from the inside out, what makes you tick, what’s important to you, if you are going to start leading people and things get tense and as you said, that sandwich leader, where you’ve got somebody up here and you’ve got these people, you’re going to get triggered. And those triggers are going to be things that are important to you. And that’s when you’re going to react and you’re going to say things that you didn’t mean or didn’t mean them in that way, or you’re going to fall apart and you’re going to yell at somebody.

I very vividly remember yelling at my admin support one time, and it wasn’t long after that she left. And it was like, oh, that’s not who I am. Right? And so if you’re going to grow and develop into leadership or as a leader, do the inner self-reflective work.

Kayla: I love that. And that also makes me think about not only knowing yourself as a leader, but also understanding how your values or expectations may be different than somebody else’s.

I’m even thinking of a time where my values didn’t necessarily align with my bosses in saying that. It was vice versa, right? And so how can we come together and say, okay, this is what you believe. This is what I believe. Now, how can we meld that. Also understanding that both of our values might not be the same as the employee’s values. But I do think that when we understand ourselves well, we also have to understand how that may be similar or different than someone else’s expectations and beliefs. There’s a difference between what each party needs and wants and prioritizes.

Kathy: I can give you a perfect example. So, you’re in a meeting, you’re working on a project, and one person values creativity, right? They’re like bringing ideas in and they’re chatting about it.

The next person values efficiency. We got to get this done and move on to the next thing. And then you’ve got a leader who thinks they’re supposed to have all the answers. So, they’re trying to fix it and just solve it.

So, like you said, it’s not that none of them are aligned, but in that moment there’s a lack of alignment because you’re not going to move the needle forward. And so, part of a leader’s job is to step back and name those things. Okay. You’re looking at creativity. I love that. We need that creativity. We’ve got only 10 minutes left and we need to make a decision before the end of this meeting. And that’s where a leader is going to be more effective at understanding. Because they’ve got to manage those inner thoughts like, oh man, these guys are getting mad at each other and like I’m supposed to know the answer. And if they’ve done the inner work, they can maintain their composure. But also talk about what’s happening so that we can go, okay, yeah, you’re right. I’ve got 15 ideas. Creativity’s ticked off. Right? I don’t need 25. And you can move the needle forward faster.

Kayla: Absolutely. So, here’s a really great question. How would one know when they are leading well?

Kathy: If you are leading well, you’re going to have what’s called an engaged team. So, Gallup has done research around the world for years and years and years. And they talk about engagement as people who are involved in enthusiastic about, and committed to the workplace. I call it a magnetic environment.

It pulls people in rather than repelling people. So, a toxic environment, and there’s a continuum, right? Toxic environments, people are like sick all the time. High turnover. Nobody wants to be there. A magnetic environment, like you’ve got loyal, committed employees and then everything in between.

And so, if you are doing things well, you’re going to be moving closer to that place where people want to be there. They’re sticking around, they’re telling their friends, come work for us. That’s how you know the difference.

Kayla: Do you have any additional advice, insights, or tips for listeners about tapping into their best leadership and maybe even avoiding some of those management pitfalls?

Kathy: Yes. In my book I talk about the fundamentals of leadership. Be yourself, develop yourself, take care of yourself. And then the fourth one is teach others to do the same. Be yourself really is knowing what my values, my strengths, my ethics are my character traits. The things that make me, me.

Growing yourself is really about doing that work. So, we were talking earlier about how skilled you are, obviously with organizing podcasts. If that’s not my thing and I need to do something, I need to learn how to do that. So, grow yourself, figure out what that is. Take care of yourself is really the work-life balance. You cannot be a good leader when you are on an empty tank.

You need to learn how to take care of yourself throughout your workday so that you have the stamina to manage the full workday. And that requires setting boundaries and doing different things.

And then our job as a leader is to grow other leaders. So we also need to teach other people who are you, what are your strengths?

What makes you, you, what makes you unique and stand out. And then use those on the team. Help them develop themselves. We should– it doesn’t have to be official training, but maybe we’re doing a book club or maybe we’re just bringing different little insights in a little quick video at team meetings or something. How are we growing the team?

And then making sure that they’re taking care of themselves too. I think if we’re doing those individually and we’re helping our team do those, we’re going to do the work to create that environment.

Kayla: I love that. And I’d like to add one additional, which kind of falls within those pillars as well, is self-reflection. You need to reflect on how you’re showing up. It doesn’t mean that you’re not going to make mistakes. Going back to the beginning of this episode when I said I had some crappy moments, I don’t even know if I really realized that they were crappy moments at the time I did them.

However, reflecting over time. It also goes back into what you said about knowing yourself. If you know yourself well, you can reflect about how did I show up? How was it different than somebody else’s? But also, how can I do something different in the future? Was it effective? Was it that effective?

I also believe people have different ways of receiving, even say critical feedback. For instance, I’m a very direct person and I prefer direct. I have no time to sit there to beat around the bush for 20 minutes, sugar coating things. Just tell me how it is. So, when I first started being a leader, that’s how I showed up in the world because that is how I appreciated things until I realized pretty quickly that people felt really hurt by that.

And then I had to learn the positive, negative, positive sandwich, and also understanding your staff and knowing which ones do appreciate this and which ones appreciate that because everyone has what they appreciate and what they like.

And that goes back to priorities. Are you someone who prioritizes efficiency? I am. That’s why I have a great podcast structure. Efficiency is important to me. It’s not the priority of everybody.

Kathy: Yeah. Self-reflection is key to leadership development. It’s key to character development. And it comes into everything I do. Somebody asked me the other day something about do I have to worry about what other people think about me? And I’m like, yes and no.

You do need to worry about your impact on other people. But you also can’t change who you are, right? So, it’s that balance. And so I often talk about them as dials. So, I think about the mixer that the DJ has. And so sometimes I’m going to need to turn up compassion and turn down honesty just a wee bit so that I’m not quite as direct, right? It’s not that’s not I’m being somebody who I’m not, but that self-awareness and that other awareness is going to help me know where to move the dials.

Kayla: Love it. So, Kathy, you have a book about leadership. Can you tell us what it is about and how it can help listeners?

Kathy: Absolutely. Character driven Leadership for Women was a book that I wish that I had when I stepped into leadership. It’s written for women leaders who are doing their best, but still feeling like they are drowning in their work, doubting their abilities, and feel like they’ve lost themselves.

So, the book helps them reconnect with who they are. Much of what we talked about, what are your strengths, your values, your ethics, your morals, who are you at your core, and then helps them find that realignment with them so that they can do this work that is so important to them. So, it’s not like a here’s the six steps to leadership. It’s more like a toolbox to do the inner work that you and I have been talking about to do this self-reflective work. There are so many self-reflective exercises in it. There’s a whole chapter called Jot in your journal because I think that that self-reflection is so important and if people are uncomfortable with journaling different ways, different frameworks to actually do the inner work without thinking of it. It’s not dear diary. And so, it’s to help them really figure out how to be themselves, show up in a way that feels aligned with who they are so that they can do the mission driven work and create that work environment that they want.

Kayla: Amazing. So, to sign up for Kathy’s book, character Driven Leadership, check out kayladas.com/kathyarcherbook. You can also check out Kathy’s website kathyarcher.com,

Or you can simply scroll down to the show notes and click on the links.

Kathy, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today to discuss management vs leadership and explaining why managing isn’t the same as leading.

Kathy: Thank you so much for having me.

Kayla: Thank you everyone for tuning into today’s episode, and I hope you join me again soon on The Designer Practice Podcast.

Until next time, bye for now.

Credits & Disclaimers

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