Show Notes

Kayla: Welcome back to The Designer Practice Podcast, and I’m your host Kayla Das.

As a therapist, you know that it’s imperative to remain current on mental health research. However, realistically, time is not always on your side to search for and review the newest evidence-based research. And with that overwhelm sets in.

In today’s episode, Dr. Katie and Chris Walsh, founders of Psych Update, will share strategies for how to connect to mental health research without the overwhelm.

Hi Chris. Hi Katie. Welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today.

Katie: Hi, Kayla. Thank you so much for having us.

Chris: Yeah, thank you for having us. We’re really excited.

Kayla: Before we dive into today’s episode, please introduce yourselves, where you’re from and tell us a little bit about you and what you do.

Katie: Yeah, so as you said, my name is Katie. I am a registered psychologist out in Nova Scotia, Canada. I currently work in a private practice myself.

And I primarily work with trauma, anxiety, depression, and ADHD. But even though I’m out here in Nova Scotia, I actually did my graduate training in Toronto at the University of Toronto. So, a lot of my initial clinical work and practice is actually out in Toronto, so

Chris: Yeah. And I’m Chris. I am a data scientist. My expertise in artificial intelligence and mining data for different insights. My education is actually in mechatronics engineering from the University of Waterloo. Mechatronics, for those of you who don’t know, is just a really nerdy way of saying robotics, so there’s a lot of artificial intelligence and mining data that goes into that.

After I finished my bachelor’s degree, I spent about 10 years working at a consulting firm in Toronto. Where I led the data science practice. So, what we did at that consulting firm was we really tried to help big retailers in Canada identify the data that was really important to them and the insights that were really important to them for growing their business.

So, executives at big businesses, at big retailers are just like everyone else. They’re overwhelmed with a lot of different information all the time. And we tried to help them pull out what was the signal amongst the noise? What was the important information? They needed to know to grow their business and move it forward.

Kayla: I love that. Before we actually get into today’s episode, I’m just curious, Chris, because I know one of the things that show up for therapists a lot is kind of the worries about AI and data mining. I know we’re gonna speak about specific resources connected to like evidence-based research. But what are some of the things working with the Psych Update that some of the considerations that you put into your software.

Chris: Yeah, at the Psych Update, we use AI to do a lot of summarization of research, and we think that’s a really valuable tool where AI is really appropriate and its skills are being used appropriately. There are risks that go with trying to find information using AI. There’s risks that go with trying to deep dive into a really broad topic using AI where it can easily make things up.

So actually, last year Katie and I were planning a trip to France and I had a really great idea. I was like, I’m gonna go on ChatGPT, and I’m gonna use ChatGPT to help me plan this trip. And I would say. 30, 40% of the restaurants it recommended did not exist. They sounded like real things. They sounded like great places. It would have like a great spiel for the restaurants. And then I’d go to Google it and I’d be like, oh, this place doesn’t actually exist.

You can run into really similar issues when you try to use AI from a really broad perspective. If you go to ChatGPT or Google Gemini or whatever it happens to be, and you say, can you summarize the latest research about acceptance and commitment therapy, for me. It will give you a lot of references that sound amazing. Just because they sound real doesn’t make them actually real. It’s really good at making things up because fundamentally what it’s doing is predicting what kind of sentences make sense in the English language. So we can put together words that sound like the title of a really informative acceptance and commitment therapy article, but it might not actually exist. So that’s one risk.

I do hear a lot of people talk about AI in the therapy room and how it might augment or conflict with a therapist’s judgment. I really believe it’s a tool that can support a therapist in making better decisions, but it should never be used to override a therapist’s judgment. I think Katie would definitely agree, but I don’t see AI diagnosing someone with ADHD for example. It just doesn’t understand how to do that properly.

The other part of it is I don’t see it making decisions in the therapy room that are really the responsibility of the therapist. The therapist has way better knowledge of what’s going on and how to tailor the session, how to adjust treatment plans, things like that.

AI is fundamentally not about logic and reasoning. It’s about putting words together. That’s just the fundamentals of how it works. And actually, Apple released a paper recently talking about how AI despite all the hype and talk about it, is not very good at reasoning.

So, another good example, last summer I had a great idea. We were planting a vegetable garden and I was like, hey, I’m going to use AI to lay out where all the different vegetables should go. And then Katie and I tried for a whole morning to get it to give us a reasonable layout of the vegetables, and it never worked. We spent four or five hours trying to figure out, figure how we could get it to lay out the vegetables, and it just never understood it because it’s more of a reasoning problem than it is a word sentence, English language problem, if that makes sense.

Kayla: It does. And it’s funny because you’re using the example of like how it makes up stuff. And actually, in the AI world it’s called hallucinations. Obviously in the therapy world we use hallucinations as well. But in the AI world, when it makes up stuff, it’s called hallucinations.

And there was one time I asked AI to list all of the therapy associations and colleges in Canada and their websites. Again, like you said, sounds so perfect. I will tell you; it made up half of them and then it didn’t give me the right websites for some of them, and then it of course omitted others that should have been included. If it’s very broad and also what it has learned about, and I think that’s another big piece of, there’s so many different models that exist out there. Has it been trained on this specific thing? And has ChatGPT really been trained on listing all of the therapy associations in Canada? Probably not.

Katie: I think one thing, just learning a little bit about this when as Chris is like kind of working with this and creating the Psych Update is, and what we know about research is there’s actually a pretty big danger of taking what you’ve learned through research and generalizing that to everybody. And I noticed that that’s also what AI can do. It can be like this tiny little bit of research and say, hey look, this little research study that was done in Ontario, Canada with university students, oh, that also applies to people all the way out in Australia that are working full time. And which is very different. So those broad generalizations I think can be really dangerous.

And that’s maybe part of why we still need a therapist and a therapist room to be able to be aware of those limitations so that we’re not just drawing on those broad conclusions and applying strategies to clients that really are not going to be helpful at all to them.

Kayla: I love that. No, I couldn’t agree with you more. So why is it important to stay current with evidence-based research and how does that look like in real life? And I’m particularly interested in your own experience, Katie, as a therapist yourself.

Katie: Yeah. So, staying current with research is so important for a few reasons, well, probably many reasons. But a few that come to my mind is like, as humans, we can all attest to the fact that we’re always learning and growing and changing. And our society is also growing and changing all the time, and that means our understanding of ourselves, our understanding of the human psyche is always growing and changing as well. And if we weren’t keeping up with the research, that means we would get stuck in what we’re doing, it’s not going to work for people as we learn and grow and change.

I mean, a good example is with the COVID-19 pandemic. We had to bring so much of our therapy to online to virtual, and that has a lot of different implications when you’re doing treatment. And so, if we just stuck with our old ways, we wouldn’t have been able to– and I think we’re still also learning we’re, we would be unable to figure out how best to have a virtual treatment session that’s just as effective as a treatment session that is one-on-one in a therapy room.

So it’s preventing us from getting stuck if we didn’t learn and grow. We’d also, you know still have a lot of what they termed before is insane asylums where people didn’t get treated correctly or right at all. So, we don’t want to stay stuck.

It’s also important though, too, because therapy is hard. It’s messy, and you don’t always see the benefits of what you’re doing right away. And so, keeping updated with the research means that you also have the confidence that you’re doing what has been shown to be effective. So, you know you’re going the right direction and you can have confidence that you know you’re going this direction and you’re going to get to a place that is beneficial. If we didn’t have that, then that effort and that work that your client is putting in and that you’re putting in as well, i s it worth it? And if that question isn’t answered, then you’re not going to have the motivation, your client isn’t going to have the motivation. So that confidence in knowing that what you’re doing is going to be beneficial in the long term is extremely important.

The other part of that question is like, ideally, yeah, staying updated and current is great, but what does that look like in real life? In real life, in the therapy room, it can be very overwhelming. So, I’m sure as therapists, y’all know that it’s not just talking with clients. It takes a lot of effort, a lot of mental effort in the therapy room to be with your client, and then you’re seeing multiple clients a day.

So, for me, I see six clients a day. So that means I’m seeing six different people. I’m making tons of decisions within each therapy session. I’m dealing with a variety of different problems and difficulties, and so I’m thinking all day. And so then to try and add research onto that, which would mean finding the research that’s relevant to me, digesting the research that I do find, and then also figuring out how to apply that in the therapy room. That’s a full-time job in and of itself. So, trying to do therapy and that research is very difficult and overwhelming. And so, we can have the best of intention, but then because of that overwhelm, we might fall into bad habits. We might just fall into what’s easier, fall into what we know well, which probably works with a lot of people, but not everybody.

So, then we might feel, at least for me, if I’m not keeping updated with the research, I feel guilty, which doesn’t help. And then I worry that I’m not doing enough and then I start feeling burnt out that I’m not doing the best that I can for my clients. So, I think it’s ideal and really helpful to stay current with evidence-based research. And at the same time, it’s really, really difficult.

Kayla: You know, I couldn’t agree with you more, and I think you really touched on it. One, our obligation to continue to learn and grow and to be quote unquote competent in our practice. But then it’s also the desire to want to learn, to grow, and to build our practice. But then there’s the other side of it too, of already we’re having full caseloads. We have families, like we have hobbies, things outside of work that are also included. And if you own your own your own private practice, you also have to do marketing and find clients and case notes that you’re not getting paid for and all of these types of things that are also added in to that as well. And that can be quite overwhelming.

Are there specific frustrations or pain points that you see when it comes to therapists and finding the right research?

Katie: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is that there’s so much research out there. There’s so many different problems that people experience, disorders that people are diagnosed with, and as therapists, we don’t treat everything ethically. We tend to be experts in certain areas because it would be impossible to try and treat everything, but that doesn’t mean everything doesn’t exist. Sorting through that, everything is really, really difficult.

Then add onto that, at least through my experience, there’s so much now misinformation out there as well, especially with those like easy ways of searching things. So, such as like throwing something into Google really quickly. You can have a whole list of things and it’s like, oh, this is great. But then you have to weed through and figure out what can you trust, what can’t you trust? What is actually supported by evidence? What is just someone’s opinion? So I think the amount of stuff that is out there is. At least for me the the biggest pain point in finding that right research.

Chris: And I think another topic that comes up quite a lot when I’m talking to Katie or colleagues or other people. Is it can be really hard to get to the information that’s practical for a mental health professional. So much of the research that’s out there is good in that it helps other researchers, but it’s very academically focused, and not focused necessarily on what can I do in my practice differently to help my clients in a really practical way.

And I think the other part of that, or what comes along with that is even if you have a journal that should be really relevant to your practice or the populations that you work with, because of a lot of the research inside that journal is going to be more academically focused. When you open it up, there’s such a low chance that what you’re going to get when you randomly open that journal or email is going to be something practical, that it can be really discouraging right off the bat. And I think that was something I really noticed with Katie and her colleagues while we were building the Psych Update.

That first step was just so discouraging because you’re getting hit with so much information, but a huge percentage of it is not helpful, so you just get discouraged right away. Like right off the bat, you’re hitting wall after wall, as opposed to getting to engage with it and getting to the more fun, enjoyable part of, what can I do with this? How can I think about connecting this to my clients?

Kayla: This actually makes me think about when I was doing both my Bachelor and my master’s. If I was doing a paper for school, I would go and search for, I don’t know, a hundred different articles that might be for that particular topic that I’m writing about. Then at the end when I actually read through all of them, there might be 20, that’s if I’m lucky, it still might be like 10 or 15 out of a hundred.

And all of these articles from the outside, from the title, from the little bit of abstract looks like it could be. But it just was a little bit vague and I wasn’t quite sure. And then I spent so much time. So again, as a student, that’s a part of the game. But when you’re a therapist and you’re trying to find, with all of those real-life things that Katie had just mentioned previously. We don’t have time to go through a hundred articles to find 10 or 15 or 20 that might be applicable. We have very limited time to be doing that. And it’s actually going to prevent many therapists from even wanting to look because it just takes so much time.

Chris: Yeah, I think that’s a great point. When you’re writing another paper, investing in looking at a hundred different papers to find 20 or 10 that work for your research. It makes sense and you have the time to do that. But at the end of the week or the beginning of the week even. You’ve seen some clients, you’re tired, you’re emotionally invested in your clients, so there just isn’t energy to get over those walls that keep hitting you. And when you open up a hundred papers and you go through 10 of them and eight of them have been useless, you’re just really frustrated and given how little energy you have, it is just going to be really hard to keep moving forward.

Kayla: Absolutely. So how can and does research get used in the therapy room? We kind of already touched on that, but let’s talk about that practical piece of it.

Katie: Yeah, definitely. Ideally, there’s a lot of different reasons why research should be used in a therapy room and how it can be used in a therapy room. So, I think one thing is working with clients is rarely textbook. It’s always different. Each person is unique. There’s so many unique problems. So many like complexities, multiple diagnoses. Like there’s so many different things.

And so, you know you’re going to get stuck with your clients. You’re not going to be like just, oh yeah, this. I’m working with this client. Great. Yep. Okay. They’re good. Now we’re going on to the next person. And so, when you get stuck with your clients, research is really important for helping you identify maybe things that you’re missing in your conceptualization. Helping you to identify how multiple diagnoses can actually interact and influence each other.

For example, when I’m working with trauma. A lot of time, the work that we’re doing is complicated by maybe someone who also has chronic pain, and so that’s important to also be aware of, but you’re not always going to be aware of it. The research can really help you find those things. related to that, is we’re always updating and improving treatment approaches.

Treatment outcomes aren’t where we want them to be. I mean, ideally, I guess we’d probably want them to be a hundred percent. But they’re not there. And so, research is really important for keeping yourself updated with new things that are coming out so that you can give your clients the best care possible. We’re always, again, changing and growing. And so, we want to keep updated with that so we can improve our treatment outcomes.

And similarly, like, if say you have clients you’re working with and you’ve done the first line treatment with them and they’re still not getting any better, research is really important for gaining confidence in other treatment approaches that you can try out with them. So again, I work a lot with trauma, so I’ll probably refer to that a lot, but with post-traumatic stress disorder, the first line treatments are either prolonged exposure or cognitive processing therapy, which are great. But they don’t work for everybody. They don’t work for a lot of people. And so research can also show us that mindfulness can actually be really helpful, and acceptance and commitment therapy actually gaining traction with working with trauma as well. Self-compassion is something that’s also gaining traction when working with trauma. And so, knowing that there’s research coming up about that, you can’t just say, all right, we’ve tried the first line treatment didn’t work, eh, nothing else to do. Research gives us more options to try out so that we can be more still evidence-based, but flexible with our clients and client-centered and really meeting them where they are, knowing we have that confidence that we’re moving in the direction that’s going to be helpful for them.

And I think another thing too is research can also validate what you’re seeing in a therapy room. So, a lot of times you’re picking up on patterns that you’re seeing with clients, and then when research starts to match those patterns, you’re like, okay, yeah, all right, this is what I’m seeing. So, it kind of also gives you validation.

I’ve noticed a lot like wow my clients with depression and trauma; they are so hard on themselves. They really engage in that negative self-talk. They’re very unkind with themselves and when you’re trying to do the work and say they’re trying to do the homework or the practice work or whatever you call it in the therapy room. They can get mad at themselves when they don’t do it, or they don’t do it right or they’re not getting better. And so, I was starting to realize like, wow, self-compassion is such a key piece that seems to be missing. And then I was starting to think that I’m like, oh, but am I just making up patterns that aren’t there to make myself feel better about maybe why they’re not getting better. And then with actually the Psych Update. I started getting research articles about self-compassion. I’m like, no, it’s not just me that’s seeing it. Other people are seeing it too. Okay. So yeah, I think it makes sense to go more into this self-compassion with my clients. So, it gave me that confidence that I wasn’t just making things up and I kind of had more options to work with my clients.

Kayla: It told you that your treatment and your modality is working even when you don’t know if it is. And I think that that’s really big. Because sometimes as therapists were like, is it working like it? It feels like it is, but am I just imagining that? But having other people actually write About it and show those patterns to you could be a game changer into showing you Yes, it’s working.

Katie: Yeah, exactly, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who can also be hard on themselves when working with clients. So yeah, we often feel like am I doing the right thing? Am I just making up that maybe they’re progressing because it makes me feel better. There’s so much for ourselves that the research can also help with being like, okay, yeah, it’s not just me. This is working okay. I’m not just making this up. It’s nice to know that you’re not alone in it.

Kayla: Absolutely. So, we kind of talked about why research is important, and we also talked about the challenges that therapists face in accessing it, but being busy on the go professionals, how can therapists fill the gap between what they want to know, but also being realistic with their time? So, in other words, are there sustainable habits that they can do ongoing to enhance their learning and their practice through research without getting overwhelmed?

Katie: Yeah, I’ll jump in again. And I think Chris probably has some great things to add to this as well. So, this is speaking, from my own personal experience, but also working with ADHD where overwhelm is actually a huge part of that. So, what we need to know first is what overwhelm actually does. Overwhelm can contribute to just avoidance. That avoidance then over time contributes to feeling guilt, which then when there’s a lot of guilt, then sometimes we might go from avoidance to trying to do everything, and then doing too much. Then we’re burning ourselves out, feeling frustrated, so then we go back to avoidance. So that cycle then just repeats itself over and over again.

And so, what I’ve found is one of the biggest ways to break that cycle is to break down what you want to do into those really kind of really small, bite-sized, manageable steps, even smaller than you think they should be. So, what that might look like, or at least for me, what that looks like is each week I have committed to spending either 30 minutes to an hour either engaging in research or reading a book or watching part of a workshop, and that’s it. Okay, 30 minutes to an hour that’s all I’m going to do.

And what that’s done is it’s actually allowed me to, well not feel guilty because I’m not avoiding. Over time, I’ve actually made a lot more progress on keeping up to date with my learning than I would have if I was either avoiding or trying to do it all. It’s actually also can help you apply what you’re learning better in the therapy room. So, for me, 30 minutes gives me one learning point to focus on and then I can take that learning point. I can think about it, I can sort of chew on it a little bit and figure out how to apply it in the therapy room. I can actually remember the learning point. Because it’s just one thing I have to remember. Whereas if I was to spend three or four hours, you know, doing a whole workshop or reading like a bunch of chapters of a book at a time. There’s going to be maybe 10, maybe more learning points. I’m not going to remember all of that. So, if I’m not going to remember it, I’m not going to chew on it. I’m not going to reflect or process it. I’m not going to figure out how to apply it in a therapy room. So really, I’m doing myself a disservice.

So breaking things down into really, really small steps, I think is the biggest thing. And learning to be okay with that because I think at first you might feel like you’re not doing enough. I’m not doing enough. I need to be doing more. That’s the overwhelm talking. So, learning that it’s okay to take these bite-sized steps and it’s actually going to be better for you in the long run. I guess it’s like working out. So, you know, if you want to work out and you want to get strong, if you were avoiding it and then all of a sudden you try to lift the 50-pound weight, you’re not going to get anywhere. You’re probably going to injure yourself. You’re going to hate doing it. It’s going to be really uncomfortable, and then you’re not going to do it again for like another month. You’re not getting anywhere. So, it’s the same idea. You want to maybe do like a five-minute workout every other day, and that’s going to get you much farther than trying to do one giant workout once a month.

Chris: Yeah. I think to a lot of the points that Katie was bringing up, it has a lot to do with smart goals, which I think is kind of ironic because as therapists talk about smart goals quite a bit to clients as a way of achieving something or overcoming something. I think this is one case where smart goals make a lot of sense from the therapist point of view. How to set smart goals around keeping up with research and making that a habit that is valuable and meaningful, and enjoyable rather than that kind of chore. That’s a burden at the end of a busy week.

And then the other part of that is there’s a book that probably a lot of people have heard of Atomic Habits. It’s a really great book about setting goals and building positive habits that make a lot of sense, and I think it makes a lot of sense in terms of incorporating research into practice, and a lot of the things that Katie was just mentioning because it talks about a lot of those strategies in really useful ways. Making things really bite sized, stopping before it becomes a burden, keeping it enjoyable, all those kinds of ideas. So, I think that’s a really great resource for building sustainable habits.

Kayla: I second that I’ve read the Atomic Habits and it is definitely supportive and like everything we talked about today plus more. So, if anybody wants to read that, I definitely encourage you.

And I also agree with keeping it bite size and this is not really time but evidence-based research, although I had to do a bit of that, is I am actually just finished my manuscript for writing my first book and it’s currently in the editing stage. And it’s so interesting because when I was writing it, I felt like it was never going to get done. But what I did is I set a very manageable goal of 300 words a day, five days a week. And it’s only small. Even the times I was uninspired, I was able to somehow write 300 words, and it was realistic. And 300 words got me to a finished manuscript, and ideally when this episode goes live probably won’t be out for sale, but it’d definitely be at the end of the editing process, and that’s a big accomplishment, right?

So, looking for research, being able to have those small bite sized steps and being able to do it, even if it is only 30 minutes an hour each week, that’s going to bring you 30 minutes or an hour further than you were.

Katie: I wonder if I can just also add onto that as well. Creating those sustainable habits then are maintained in and of themself because when you take those bite-size pieces or steps and like you said you did 300 words a day and you accomplished it, that accomplishment then feels good. And so, when we feel good, when we have those accomplishments, then that is what gives us the motivation to do more. And so doing a little bit every day can really build that motivation and then excitement over what you’re actually learning, and then excitement to apply it to your clients and apply it to your treatment.

And so, I think that’s also really important because we want to be excited about our jobs. We want to not feel burnt out and like we’re just really reluctant to go into each day. And so, yeah, building that sustainable practice can also help us just enjoy our jobs a lot more too.

Kayla: I love it. Chris, I know you’ve created a one-of-a-kind research tool to help therapists access evidence-based research without the overwhelm. So can you tell us a little bit about what it is and how it can help listeners and also tell us a little bit of the story behind why you even created it.

Chris: Yeah. So, the Psych Update is a platform that’s all about all of the things we’ve been talking about so far. So, it’s about making the connection to research something that’s practical, enjoyable, and meaningful for mental health professionals.

So, it’s a platform that’s all about saying, how do we simplify that process? Make it something that as a therapist, you can love and look forward to something that is part of your identity that you can say, hey, I am really up to date. And that’s part of who I am as a therapist, and that’s part of what empowers my practice and helps make it as strong as it possibly can be, and that’s part of how I help my clients. So that’s really what we’re trying to do.

And the idea and the plan for that all came from a lot of complaining from Katie and some of her colleagues about exactly that. The idea that they felt not only obligated to try and stay up to date on the research, but they wanted to stay up to date on the research. They felt like that could make them more effective, that it could help them enjoy their work more. But they just kept hitting barrier after barrier. Like we were saying earlier, you get that onslaught of information and you don’t know where to go.

So, the Psych Update really came out of that. I, as a background in engineering, I just like to solve problems. I’ve never been passionate about, like one technology or the other. I’ve always just been passionate about how do we find big problems and how do we find a solution that makes people’s lives better or helps them do their work better?

So that’s where the Psych Update came out of. They were doing a lot of complaining, throwing out a lot of journals, and I was saying that I don’t think this is the most effective way of doing this. So, I tried to come up with a platform to do that.

And so, the Psych Update specifically to do that gives you weekly research updates that are completely customized to your specific practice. So, when you sign up for the Psych Update, the first thing that it asks you to do is say, what kind of populations do you work with? What kind of disorders and issues do you work with? What kind of treatment modalities do you tend to use or care about? And then every week after that, you get a summary of the latest research completely tailored to exactly that.

Those summaries come with every week, five articles that represent the latest research that has practical implications. So, things that you should be able to take away. You might not be able to start using them right away, but at least think about and connect with and see if it can work for your specific practice.

And each of those articles comes with a summary, and that summary is designed to be really quickly digestible and scannable. So, the summary always comes in exactly the same format. It’s three bullet points. One bullet point tells you what’s the methodology. One bullet point tells you what are the key findings, and then one bullet point tells you what are the practical takeaways that might impact your practice?

So, you can really quickly look in the article summary and you can say, this has practical takeaways that look like they might make sense for my practice. Is the methodology something that I think can be relied upon? And then if it’s yep, and yep, then maybe I want to spend some more time actually thinking about this article and doing that more fun part of thinking about where does this impact my practice? How can I integrate it? Or even are there CEs that I want to take down the road because this is suggesting a new treatment modality that I wasn’t using before.

And then the second piece of the Psych Update comes in two formats. The first format is in your email, and the second format is in a web app that we call your research library. So, it stores every article that’s been recommended to you, and then you can go in there, favorite things, mark, things as read or unread, delete things if they’re not relevant to you or you’re done with them. So, you can just keep things organized on that side of things. Yeah.

Kayla: Amazing. So, if you want to sign up for the Psych Update, you can actually receive a four-week free trial. So, I definitely encourage you to go and sign up. You can head to thepsychupdate.com.

That’s the psych update.com.

Or you can simply scroll down to the show notes and click on the link.

Chris, Katie, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today to discuss how to connect with mental health research without the overwhelm.

Chris: Thanks so much for having us. We really appreciate it.

Katie: Yeah. Thank you so much. This was lots of fun

Kayla: And thank you everyone for tuning into today’s episode, and I hope you join me again soon on The Designer Practice Podcast.

Until next time, bye for now.

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