Show Notes

In today’s episode, Dr. Jodi Amen, licensed clinical social worker and family relationship advisor, will discuss how narrative therapy can help couples with affair recovery.  

Hi, Jodi. Welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today.

I’m excited to be here.

Jodi, before we dive into today’s episode, please introduce yourself, where you’re from, and tell us a little bit about your practice journey.

Okay, so I’ve been on the journey for a really long time. I’m in Rochester, New York, so that’s Western New York between Syracuse and Buffalo. And I was born and raised here. I went away to school and came back.

But from high school I was introduced to helping people and helping people who need support and need advocacy in the world because of structural things in our community, in our country, that keep people marginalized unfairly.

So I was introduced to that as a really young age, and then when I went to college, I realized that you could go to school for this and you could do this for a living.

And so I decided to become a social worker. So I went right through school to be a social worker, and I never looked back. That was 28 years ago, and about five years ago, I got my doctorate in social work. It’s one of my favorite identities being a social worker because it really just sums up who I am and how I want to be in the world. And that’s not helping people, but it’s being with people, being present and being where people are so that you could lift each other up together. Like obviously my clients are lifting me up, but it’s we need to be compassionate and empathetic and caring in this world so that, people could heal from the injustices that they’ve experienced. And I’m in it. I’m here for it. I’m so happy to be here.

Oh, that’s such a beautiful story and, social work is such a, I want to say a unique, profession. We come in to become social workers usually for like the justice piece. And I know that’s definitely one of the pieces that, allowed me to become a social worker too, because I just saw so many injustices that I was just like, I want to make change in the world. And so I just love that’s your story and that’s what brought you here.

But first of all, let’s talk about the therapy side of you. So what is narrative therapy and how do you use it in your practice when you’re working specifically with couples going through affair recovery?

Narrative therapy is the orientation to the interface between human behavior and identity. So understanding that the interrelation of human behavior and identity, and it’s based on several assumptions, and one of the most important assumptions is that problems are located in context, in relationships. Not in people. So it doesn’t think about the traditional mental health as there’s a problem within you, you have a mental illness or something.

But our problems in our community and our problems that we’re experiencing as individuals, as families, as communities come from the context of our life in the context of our relationships. And so it’s a way of thinking about problems in the way of thinking about the world. So that is really helpful. And I’ll talk a little bit more about narrative there because I think it’s the most misunderstood modality out there. But when you’re thinking about couples work. You focus on the relationship and the problem is in the relationship, and both people are reacting to the problem in the relationship, but each person is thinking the other person is the problem, right? Instead of thinking about the actions that people are taking because of the responses to the context of the relationship is the problem. So it’s a zoomed out view that’s very helpful to invite people to see because then they can address the real problem instead of trying to blame the other person.

So I could talk a little bit about narrative therapy, if you don’t mind, but the second assumption that I wanted to mention, it’s based on a lot of different assumptions, a way of thinking about the world.

But the next one is that life is multi-storied. So you have stories about who you are. You’re a wife, you’re a mother, employee, manager, or a dog mom, maybe. You’re a good driver or an advocator or a creative person, something, right? There’s so many identities. There’s so many stories that we have about ourself. And then, there’s problem stories that we have about ourself. Those again, come out of the context of our life, and those are like, I’m a loser, or I can’t do it. I never win. Bad things always happen to me and they affect our identity, so we have experiences in our life that makes us feel really terrible about ourself, and then we don’t know what to do with that or why that happened. And often then blame ourself or see ourself as something that caused it or deserved it or something.

That’s one way we try to get control in a situation. When we don’t have control, we tend to blame ourself. That’s like a whole other story. But narrative therapists aim to deconstruct those problem stories. So for some people it’s sometimes in their life. Those problem stories get a lot of room and a lot of space.

And when they have a lot of room and a lot of space, obviously they cause depression, anxiety, anger, conflict and maybe immobilization, stalling, isolation. And you all know the things that we experience when we’re not feeling very good. And when it has too much bandwidth in your life, then it affects how you perform and how you be and how you see yourself and all your relationships.

So as a narrative therapist, we’re trying to deconstruct those problems when they take up too much space and breathe life into those other stories. Life is multi-story. Those stories are already there. I am not teaching somebody how to be a certain way. They’re already there and I’m bringing them back out and breathing life into them. Because they’re already there. They’re that’s who that person is. Like I’m not going to convince someone who’s not creative, that they’re creative. They’ll step into that identity because that’s how they see themself because they are doing all these creative activities, right?

So it’s different than CBT because I’m not teaching somebody skills. I’m finding skills they already have, breathing life into them, and the person has better access to them and better success at then using them to feel better.

I love that. Can you give us maybe even an example, or maybe even questions on how someone, you know might start using narrative therapy with clients or maybe a narrative therapy type question.

Sure. Yes. Michael White and David Epstein are the ones that founded narrative therapy, and Michael White has these lines of inquiry and lines of inquiry is like a group of questions that he asks people and they have a purpose. So they’re called the Maps of Narrative Therapy. So literally we have questions that we are given to be able to ask our clients.

Let me give you an example. The first map of narrative therapy is an externalizing map. It’s also called a statement of position. One map. And I know these seem technical, but they’re easily learned and I teach this and it’s like mind blowing how powerful this is in a conversation and how quickly you get to something that helps people move in a new way.

So that line of inquiry, that’s four questions. What is the problem basically is the first question. The second question is, how is it influencing your life? And the third question, is that okay with you that it has all these negative influences on your life? And the fourth question is, why is that not okay with you? Assuming they’re going to say no. Sometimes they say some of it’s yes and some of it’s no. Assuming if there’s all these negative effects of this problem, they’re going to say, no, I don’t want it in my life anymore. And you’re going to ask why? Why not? Why don’t you want it in your life anymore? And they start to talk about things that are important to them. You’re getting at some things that they value.

Now, the value is how we define our identity, right? So what we give value to what’s important to us is how we want to see ourself. That is the basis of our identity. And so when we’re asking those questions, they’re starting to connect with who they want to be instead of that problem story that they see themself in.

I love that. So when we’re thinking about working with couples, what are some of the challenges that you see counselors maybe experience when they’re working with couples?

 Let me just say first, why narrative therapy? Because I explained narrative therapy, but how it works with couples is when they stand up against their problem, they’re joining together.

Really, they come into therapy and they’re against each other, right? They’re fighting and they both want validation for their own thing. They’re both defending themselves and arguing for their side. But we want them to take a position against the problem. Then they’re on the same side. So it’s really powerful.

So then you ask what are some challenges? I think that people expect someone to take sides. That’s just a little bit how we see the world. When you’re in conflict, do you expect that people can’t not take one side or the other. And the reality is there’s some behaviors that are just not okay. If one person’s mean to the other person, and usually it’s both sides, and sometimes it’s one way, a little bit more than the other way. But when one person’s mean to the other person, you have to stand against that violence or that meanness. It’s violent When you’re mean to somebody. It’s experienced as violence. It’s very hurtful.

And so you have to take a stand against violence. I can’t be neutral. Sometimes there’s this myth that therapists have to be neutral. We’re not neutral when it comes to violence and being mean to other people. You have to stay, and that’s not okay. But usually the person, if they’re really defending their violence. They’re probably not coming to therapy, but if they’re coming to therapy, there’s some part of them that doesn’t want to act like that. They know that’s not okay. And so to get them to join together around that.

But often when it is one sided and one person is being meaner than the other person, and you know that they’re nervous system is stressed out. People are mean because they’re feel, so powerless in their life. So it’s usually a nervous system issue. So they’re feeling really anxious. They’re feeling out of control. They might not label it as that, but that’s what they’re feeling and that’s why people are mean to people.

And so that’s urgency is to get that person’s nervous system under control. But this is what happens is if you’re focused then on helping that person get the nervous system under control so they stop being mean. You set up like, this is not okay to be mean and this is how we fix it. But the other person in the relationship who’s like they been mean to me, really wants some time to talk.

 They want some time to talk. They want to get validated. They want some space because they haven’t had space in this relationship. The other person’s been mean to them. But what’s the urgency here? Do we need to spend time to get this other person to come and stop being mean because that’s essential for moving forward it at all?

Or do we give space for the person who is receiving the meanness to get validated and get space? Quite quickly, they tell me what happens. I understand what happened and I’m advocating for them, but they also don’t have space to keep saying it over and over.

Because I kind of grocked it really quick and I’m addressing it, in their protection. So it’s very complicated. Anyway. I hope that was explained easily enough. It’s too heady.

No, No, I think it was really well explained and I think this actually goes into my next question is when you’re thinking about both narrative therapy and working with couples, what is it that you enjoy about working with this specific population in your practice?

I think that using narrative therapy, the way you use it really decreases therapist burnout. So I’ve been doing this 28 years. I could keep doing it another 28 because I’m inspired by people every day. Yes, I’ve worked with people unspeakable trauma. I’ve worked with people in concentration camps. I’ve worked with people who’ve been horribly abused to you can’t even imagine.

And I’m so inspired by their resilience, their care for the people around them, or their care for their pets or their care for themselves. That’s what I hold onto, like it counters my burnout because I’m constantly looking for those other stories that they have, that those are preferred identities.

Anyway with couples, you hold this hope. I know that they could do it. I know that people could do it and if they’re in therapy and they’re like, I want to stay together, you use that. Why? And I’m a romantic, but I have also been married the same time as I’ve been a social worker. I’ve been with my partner. and I have a great relationship.

So I have the nervous system privilege to not be triggered by all kinds of things that my clients are going through. And I make mistakes Because I’m human of course, but I don’t have a lot of inappropriate responses because of my own issues. Because, I’m so lucky to have nervous system privilege. That is a privilege. I didn’t earn that. I just was lucky.

So why I love it so I’m a romantic. I want them to stay together. If they want to stay together, I want them to stay together. If they want to break up, I help them let the other person down. Of course, I don’t try to convince them to stay together, but I’m a romantic. And so I could paint a picture for them of what it might be like if they have a relationship that’s ideal and mutually lifting each other up because I’ve seen it and I understand it.

So I’ve seen it from the inside and understand it, and I’ve helped couples for so long doing it, and I think that gives them something to reach for and go for and to have hope for. ’cause a lot of them don’t want to lose this relationship even though it’s not working out really well at the moment.

I love that. Now, I know the title of this podcast, we talked about affair recovery. What is affair recovery and how do you support couples with this particular problem or issue?

A lot of times couples come to couple counseling after an affair, and so sometimes affairs break up couples. We know that, but much of the time, couples want to stay together after an affair, and so they need a little bit of navigation knowing how to do that, how to really go forward. The person who was betrayed has to figure out how they could decide to stay but still not have trust and how to hold that space. And the person who did the affair has to deal with the guilt about the affair, maybe losing their partner that they love. Feeling horrible about what they’ve done but be humble, right?

So they do need a little bit of support navigating all that. And so that’s what I call affair recovery. They’re making a conscious choice that they want to try to stay together. And they always have a choice to change their mind at any moment. Because I want them to stay empowered instead of disempowered.

Because couples who are like, we’re not breaking up. We’re going to stay together. They don’t work hard. Because they have nothing to lose. They have to say, if this isn’t work, I’m not staying here. That’s going to motivate them to do work. So all the times I’m reminding them, Because first of all, an affair makes you feel powerless actually on both sides, but mostly, if it’s done to you feel so powerless, you feel like everyone thinks you’re a fool for trying to stay after this happened.

And the reality is no one really knows how it feels unless they’ve gone through it. And there’s a lot of reasons to stay after an affair. And sometimes the relationship gets better than it ever was. So there’s reasons that not everyone understands, and maybe you never did.

You always thought if I had an affair, that’s it. And then your husband has an affair or your wife has an affair and you’re like, I have to change what I always thought I would do, and then you’re you have this inner conflict, and so making space for that and being like this is understandable because nobody out there except for me, maybe in this therapy session is on their side about it, right? All their friends are like, get out. What are you doing? Mostly. It’s complicated. But narrative therapy is good because you could get them on the same page against all the feelings that come up for them.

I know one thing that comes up for many therapists when they’re considering or thinking about going into couples counseling is maybe a worry about over identifying or siding with one partner over the other. How can a therapist avoid that over identification? And of course, siding with one partner over the other?

 I think that’s a great question. Obviously, do your work have supervision around this? Because these do trigger your stuff. These are human things and so you’re a human and you’re not going to be outside of the influence of the western world, right? So I’m a woman in the western world. I’ve had the effects of traditional gender discourses. I’ve had those effects in my life.

And that seems like it would be really easy to over identify with a woman. But sometimes, I don’t know, maybe Because I’ve been doing this work so long that there’s definitely the gender issues that sometimes it’s nice to invite men into understanding then there is, homosexual couples that I work with or different kinds of couples.

People are fragile, right? Everybody’s fragile. And so if you see that as everybody’s fragile. Because even if there’s men engaging in typical traditional roles and feeling like they should have more say or power or something like that, that comes from their own fragileness too. Usually, it’s not intentional, and so if I approach everybody as fragile. As needing love, as needing a sense of worth, as wanting to be accepted. Right here, we all are, we’re all so afraid, like our biggest fear.

There’s three kinds of fears. There’s three fears under all fears. It’s rejection, being trapped and being abandoned. They’re all actually a fear of we’re worthy enough of someone staying. So the core of everything is, are we worthy enough? That’s our question. And so everybody at that core is the same. Yes. All the issues come out of context and what they’ve learned and their behaviors to address it. And those kind of things come out of the context of the world, but at the very basis, they’re similar.

And so if I could just see that humanness in each person it helps me not over identify with one or the other. The other thing is I explain behavior. Like I understand behavior. Because that’s always a why, like why do they do this? Why do they do this? I’d be like, this is why people do stuff. And so I think that prevents me, for therapists, they have to do their own work.

They have to get their own support be aware of what their own triggers are and also just really over identify with the human in us and the fragile human. And then it doesn’t get imbalanced.

That makes so much sense. And you talked about that being fragile and I think the next thing that you know, many therapists worry about, not even just with couples, just with clients in general, is, how do we deal with a mistake that we think we’ve made in practice? So when you think about potentially making a mistake, how do you handle making a mistake in practice?

Let me tell you a story because this recently happened to me a few months ago. I’m going to call them Sam and Mel, but that’s not their names.

But I had a couple come in for the very first time, and I didn’t know them at all. And so it was a heterosexual couple. The wife said that her partner was drinking a lot and disengaged, like just gets isolated and doesn’t talk to her or be with her and that she’s done and she wants a divorce. She’s definitely done and leaving.

And so I had this experience a few months before that with a woman who came to me alone, I never met, her husband, came to me alone and wants to leave her husband and is having trouble and tried to tell the husband, he said, let’s go to counseling.

He didn’t want to lose her. Let’s go to counseling. So she went to counseling, told the therapist I want to get out and I’m stuck. I don’t know how to get out. And the therapist is still working on them staying together.

So my mistake is, I was thinking about this other couple and I was thinking this person tried to say, and so it’s my job, first of all. Beause then he got really triggered and mad because he was hoping he could save this relationship and he got really mad that she was leaving and what are we here for? And so I wanted him to be nice to her when they went back home. So I’m over identifying with her except for I was trying to negotiate with them. What do you want to use our time for? This was like the first five minutes of our session. You have the whole rest of the hour with me. What would you like to use our time for? Do you want to talk about things, navigate how it’s going to be in the next couple months until you can move out? What do we want to use our time for? She didn’t speak up and he was like, this is useless. We don’t have to be here because she’s leaving anyway. And so he’s like, can we do single therapy and not couples therapy? And I was like, of course. And he’s can we start right now? So they drove together. I gave her a safe place to sit and I said, hey, it may not be over. Why don’t you play your cards? Why don’t you do what you can? Because that was my instinct. Why don’t you do what you can to be really kind and see if we could renegotiate this and we could bring her back.

I get an email from her after. I’m so glad that she emailed me. I’m so proud of her, but that seems like I’m talking down, like I could be proud of her, but I’m so glad that she did this, but she’s like, I was waiting so long for this appointment so I could really express what I’ve been going through. And get validation and you kick me out, privileging him. She didn’t know that I was trying to get him to be nice and kind to her because I saw him triggered and I was afraid that she’d be trapped, I knew that he had used alcohols pretty severely. So I didn’t be like, oh, I was sticking up for you.

I emailed her back. I offered to talk to her on the phone for free. I offered her a free session and I said I messed up. I misread the situation, messed up. And I didn’t defend myself like that would be more hurtful to her if I defended myself. And so I had to restore what I did.

And it worked. She wrote back and she was very validated by what I said, but, oh. After 28 years, I’m still making that big mistake and I really hurt her. I really hurt her. So I think it’s important to just be humble enough to be like, Hey, I’m not perfect. I’m going to make mistakes.

And instead of defending those, which is, I think humans tend to do, we don’t we feel bad and feel guilty and we didn’t mean it, and we just want to defend it. But we need to be humble and be like, yeah, I really messed that up. I really messed that up. I hurt you. I’m very sorry. Of course, we’re all afraid of getting sued or something, but as a social worker, we know apologies, make people not want to sue you.

You know what I mean? Not that I was worried about that anyway. I just cared about her feeling. Okay. But.

 I love that because just in life in general, no matter who it was or has done something an an apology and acknowledgement of a mistake goes a long way. And you’re right, sometimes, like our immediate response is, let’s justify it. Let’s put something behind it so that they understand where we’re coming from. But sometimes just being able to say, Hey, you know what? I apologize. Rebuilds that trust instead of trying to justify a decision away.

Exactly. It makes you vulnerable. So people don’t like it. And people grow up in their families. They’re taught not to apologize because it makes you too vulnerable. If you grow up in chaos, it’s don’t be vulnerable because then you could be hurt. And so we grow up thinking never be vulnerable.

 And I was very uncomfortable, but this was not about me, it was about her. Absolutely. Jodi, I know you offer various products and services. Can you tell us what they are and how they can help listeners and their clients?

Yeah, I have a peer support group for helping professionals. So we meet twice a month and then we have ceremony four times a year to really strengthen, supporting us during this time where so many people need us right now. And so that’s called Accelerate your Healing. So it’s you doing your own healing on yourself, but learning how to become your own healer so you could support your family and your community and your clients.

So that’s Accelerate Your Healing Group and I Consult families. I consult couples and I consult with a therapist about some cases. If they’re really struggling with their cases they call me up. And even if we met once or twice to help see if we can open up a new direction for that work, I do that.

And lastly, I have a bunch of card decks. I have some books as well. I have some books on anxiety, but I have some card decks on emotional intelligence and being positive mindfulness. Yeah, you could find all those on my link tree.

Amazing. So to check out Jodi’s link tree, head to linktr.ee/drjodi, so that’s Jodi.

Or you can simply scroll down to the show notes and click on the link.

Jodi, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today to discuss how narrative therapy can help couples with affair recovery.

Thank you so much for having me.

And thank you everyone for tuning into today’s episode, and I hope you join me again soon on The Designer Practice Podcast.

Until next time, bye for now.

Credits & Disclaimers

Music by Denis Pavlov Music from Pixabay

The Designer Practice Podcast and Evaspare Inc. has an affiliate and/or sponsorship relationship for advertisements in our podcast episodes. We receive commission or monetary compensation, at no extra cost to you, when you use our promotional codes and/or check out advertisement links.