Show Notes

In today’s episode, Joh Knyn, psychologist, will explain the intersection of Dissociative Identity Disorder and cultic experiences.

Hi Joh, welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today.

Hello. I’m very excited to share some knowledge to our listeners.

Yes, this is definitely a unique topic and I think it is so fitting for the podcast. But before we dive into today’s episode, Joh, please introduce yourself, where you’re from, and tell us a little bit about your practice journey.

 I’m Joh or Johanna Knyn, psychologist, here in Australia. If we can’t tell the accent I primarily work with clients in therapeutic practice with complex trauma and dissociative identities. I started my practice, back in the day, trial by fire for sure. Really drawn to trauma. And because of that thrown into the deep end here are all the complex trauma clients.

As I was working with those folks, I noticed dissociation was coming up for pretty much everybody. Yet, it wasn’t something that we learned explicitly or was talked about. So I did a lot of self-directed research and learning through that came DID as a presentation and I was very interested like, oh, I’ve not really heard of this before. What is going on?

As that continued, I started to notice clients that would come in with DID, versus what they might have been referred to as depression, anxiety as we get with our medical practitioner referrals. And then just continued to niche, DID client, self referring. And then through that kind of revealing that a lot of those folks had also survived cultic experiences.

And so now that’s generally where I work, the crossover between dissociative identities and cultic experiences and trying to deliver affirming practice. I’ve written a couple of books my last one came out last year that was, as far as I’m aware, the first time DBT has been adapted for dissociative identity disorder, so I was pretty proud of that one.

Oh, that’s something to be proud of for sure. And we’ll have to reference your book at the end of the podcast as well. But before we dive into the intersection, for any listener who may not know what Dissociative Identity Disorder or DID is, can you give us a brief explanation about this particular diagnosis, how it presents, and any other contributors to the disorder that you think would be important for listeners to know?

So DID in the DSM, it’s like medical or, psychiatric kind of diagnosis. It’s pathology. And then there’s also plurality or multiplicity, which is more of the affirming way where it LOBs off the word disorder. So for those listening. It’s understanding, there’s two ways of looking at it. One is the pathology, the dissociative identity disorder, and then one is just another way of being plurality or being multiple. So working with these clients in both ways. And how do we get to functional multiplicity, which then again, we lob off the word disorder because they’re no longer disordered.

This is a normal response, dissociative identities to horrific childhood experiences, like things that we would prefer not to think about ever if we don’t have to. The mind is exceptionally good at protecting itself when the body can’t escape from these horrors. So if you know a little person is experiencing something intolerable that they can’t escape. Either it’s unsafe to, or they just physically can’t do it, the mind escapes. So it creates a wall between parts of consciousness in order to protect one or more parts of consciousness. And that’s again, a normal process, it is a lot more profound with our folks with dissociative identities.



I think working in the space, what we might not know if we haven’t worked a lot in the space is we’re not really working towards singularity. We’re not working towards, helping in quotation marks, these folks no longer have the dissociative identities unless it’s expressly said by the, client themselves multiple times. It’s an acceptance that’s just a different way of existing. How do we help them heal from the trauma? Not the plurality.

And then in terms of how it might present, because it’s a covert disorder, the whole point of having DID plurality is to protect the self, is to be covert. You’re not really meant to know that it’s there and they’re not meant to know. Most of the main fronting parts or identities are not meant to know the rest of the system. We call it. So system to describe all parts of consciousness. They’re not meant to know they exist because if they knew they existed, they knew the trauma would happen. That would render the whole point of having dissociative amnesia barriers, pointless.

So if we’re working in the trauma space, whatever our job is, therapist, counselor. General support, always have it in the back of your mind that you might be working with someone who is plural and just treat them like you would any other patient or client. That over time, if they feel safe to reveal themselves, amazing. But yeah the common, giggle is, oh, I’ve never worked with DID go. Yep. That you know of because it’s covert.

That’s an excellent point. Now let’s add in the cultic experiences piece. So for the purpose of this conversation, what do we mean by cults and why is it important to understand the intersection between DID and cultic experiences?

Excellent question. The word cult is used in the same way, today we use the word trigger that it just is lost its meaning and its power. But cults are everywhere. Cults are in no way connected to religious practice. Some cults might incorporate religious practice, but cults does not refer to religions cults refer to power dynamics within a group.

So a cult would be a group or a movement. There would be a level of extreme devotion. There would be that devotion to either a person, like a human being or an idea if it’s say more of a movement. And in cults there’s always the use of coercive control. That is one of the big factors that we look for in these groups. The use of coercive control, their power structures, their dynamics, their relational dynamics.

They’re also self-sealing systems, which is hard to say really fast. So if we’re looking at what maybe a cult is I would definitely look at Jania Lalich Butcher her name. I’m terrible with pronunciation. She’s an expert in the area of cults. So if you want to learn more about cults specifically I do recommend having a look there.

But what we’re looking at in terms of what could a cult be, there’s a level of charismatic authority, maybe not a single leader. It might be more of a council, but there’s a charismatic authority that uses the love and fear dynamic, the chewing and froing between loving experience and fear.

There’s the transcendental belief system, so the idea of we know the truth, whatever that means, the truth of life, the truth of death. We know the truth. It’s transcending beyond us. We know it. There’s systems of control. So like ways in which there’s explicit guidelines for people to behave in these groups. Like you have to travel with a partner at all times. You can’t be left alone. You have to do these particular rituals. So explicit rules.

And then there are systems of influence that are less explicit, which are more the, I guess the culture of the cult. And that might be telling on each other. If we notice Billy is doing something that he shouldn’t, even though it’s not explicitly said that we need to tell on each other, I’m going to go tell someone because I want Billy to whatever the reason might be. So there are quite a few things to think about in what a cult is. Cults are not just something terrible happened and there’s this, nasty person at the top. There are quite a few things that we look for to define is this group a cult.



And cults aren’t necessarily just giant organizations, like really large groups. You can have one-on-one cults, so a single person to another single person.

For me, it’s important to understand the intersection between DID and cults is because, say the DSM does not explain maybe the different variations in which we might see systems. Folks with DID in the room with us.

So Ellen is also a great expert in the area. She talks a lot about the intersection between these two things. She talks about. There’s different, levels of DID being formed. So one level could be an organic system. Terrible things have happened to this person, and as a direct response to those terrible things, dissociative and amnesia barriers come between consciousness. And now we have our parts, or what I call head mates.

Another level to that could be terrible Things have happened. Those walls have come up, and then those perpetrators have noticed and then they’ve started to use those things the amnesia, the different parts or head mates to their advantage. So it’s an extra level of abuse.

Then when we get into cultic experiences, which can happen. In my experience a lot, most of my caseload is the intersection between both. Is there is a knowledge of how to create DID, create those parts within a person using specific behaviors.

So when we think about, working in the space, for me it’s understanding that the space of complex trauma, we might be seeing someone who has DID, Okay. We’re thinking about that in the background.

We might also see someone who has DID and has experienced systematically induced dissociative identities, the experience of significant torture in order to create identities and then train them for the benefit of the group or individual. So if we’re thinking about working in the space where we already are, I just wonder if we’ve considered cultic experiences and mind control as well.

That’s interesting. You’ve already talked about this a little bit, but from your experience, how do the two intersect?

Yeah, so the intersection is the systematically induced or that kind of second level of dissociative identities. So either being in the group, the cultic group that it uses, coercive control, that has all these other dynamics of systems of control, systems of influence, that’s traumatic for any child.

When we are born into these groups, which is mostly what I work with second or third generation victim survivors. So if they’re experiencing trauma from in utero or day one, there’s a higher likelihood that they’re going to have more dissociation in the average person. Then again, when we think about a lot of… or not a lot. I have no idea what the percentage would be. That’s a potential PhD topic that I would really like to do. But the idea that there are a lot of people saying quotations a lot in these groups across the world that know what to do in order to create dissociative identities for the gain of person or group without getting into obviously the nitty gritty because we’ve not all signed up to hear those things. It is systematic. It requires thought and intent. And the intersection being, it is intentional and that intentional behavior to say our client from their perpetrators adds such a different layer to healing than say, an organic system where perhaps the intent was not to create dissociative identities but to hurt or harm or, get some kind of power dynamic. There’s just such an extra layer of understanding. And then within that is separate of say the Mcoa, which is programming this kind of indoctrination of behaviors, this training. It sounds like a movie, but it is very real. If I knock three times, then I am able to activate a head mate inside to do what it’s trained to do, whatever that might be.

So again, when we’re working as therapists with these clients, understanding that maybe our treatment might inadvertently activate certain things because we just haven’t considered that maybe they’ve experienced coercive control, cultic experiences and programming. So for me, that intersection is really important to know it exists and that it’s going to inform how we practice so that we don’t end up reinforcing these terrible things for these people, which will not help their treatment and that can happen we’re working with this client. I’ve worked with him for four years. There’s just no improvement and the assumption being, maybe they’re malingering. Maybe there’s something going on I refer on. But what we’re doing is just missing this piece of their puzzle that maybe they’re that kind of level two of perpetrators have recognized associated identities and manipulated them or used it to their advantage or systematically created dissociative identities.

If any listener, may be resonating with what you’re saying, and maybe they have a client who they either suspect or, think about or they come across a client who they believe might have DID, How can they support them or even identify some of the experiences, potentially even cultic experiences that the person had, say safely and effectively as they’re working with this particular client.

So if we’re not sure if we’re working with DID anyway that would be your first point. if we’re working in trauma or complex trauma, we need to just think about it as a differential anyway. Say if a lot of experiences for systems before they’re actually diagnosed, which can take up to 10 years, which is a very long time of misdiagnosis and mistreatment.



Is the query when someone is in crisis. As we kind of triage, do you hear voices? The answer likely will be yes. If you know for whatever reason they feel compelled to say That’s yeah, my experience. Some say no again because it’s covert. But if the answer is yes, the assumption being it’s psychosis, which is a far less prevalent than DID. So one is just understanding that DID is more prevalent than schizophrenia. And when we’re asking, say in triage or intake around voice hearing, that we might then go into second question of trying to understand command hallucinations. Are they telling you to do something? Yeah. Head mates are going to say, don’t do that. Because they want to keep the person safe or they might, have interjects inside. So parts that are based on external people who are saying the same things they heard growing up. That might sound like command hallucinations, but again, understanding that the idea is more common than schizophrenia, and I think justice as common as BPD.

So understanding that, we need to consider DID, as being present if we’re working in the trauma space and if we’re looking out for it, asking questions about internal experience. So DID is the internal experience, it’s the experience of multiple selves, less about the external. Our assessments And everything that we can do the mid, the DES, but actually asking about the person’s internal experience. What does it feel like inside? What does it sound like inside? And for someone who doesn’t have DID, those can be really weird questions. What do you mean? What does it sound? Are you asking what I’m thinking.

But I’ve not asked. What are you thinking? I’m asking what it sounds like inside, because there’s an internal world in there. Everyone has an internal world to a degree, but it is very different with multiplicity. So what does it sound like inside? Are we hearing anything in there? If we just notice, do we hear maybe a voice? Do we maybe sense something inside? If the answers may be yes. Okay. Is it okay if we’re curious about that? What do we think is trying to be shared or communicated? And then just continuing to be curious at the pace that is tolerable for the person in front of us. So working with these clients, we’re always working with the person in front of us pace, and when we get to multiplicity, we’re always working at the pace of the slowest head mate or at the understanding that not all parts are going to be at the same point in treatment. Some parts might be much further along in their healing or untraumatized in general. So just being mindful that we’re working with a bunch of different people who share the same body.

And then if we’re considering DID, we also need to consider potential of cultic experiences and the layer of maybe mind control and programming being present. So hopefully listeners aren’t terrified now ugh, that sounds like a lot. It isn’t, it’s in the same way we might, learn about OCD to a really deep degree or any other kind of DSM diagnosis to a deep degree and working in a way that we’re considering all possibilities.

When we’re working in the DID space, and this is I think something Alison Miller, another name to drop. Fabulous. In terms of the intersection between multiplicity and cultic experiences and programming. The assumption that if we’re working with DID, that they are in a cult and that they’re probably still in the cult, and that should be our assumption because treatment will look differently that way. If we assume they haven’t had cultic experiences and they aren’t connected, because again, if we do something in therapy that might inadvertently trigger off program responses, then that is deeply unhelpful. So if we assume those things are present, it’s going to inform how we practice so we can avoid those things and look out for those things.

That’s really helpful. I can already hear listeners say that DID is more prevalent than schizophrenia. So I would love for you just to briefly touch on that, because I already can hear listeners say, I don’t think that’s true, but obviously it is.

Yeah. So fact, check me I encourage it, don’t just take my word for anything that’s critical thinking here. Have a look at the DSM. So when we look at the DSM five, I think we’re on. I think schizophrenia, it’s just off the top of my head. Schizophrenia is under 1% in terms of population. Then when we look at DID I think it ranges from one to 3%.

And then listeners can correct me. I think there’s other areas that say up to 6% say in the psychiatric population, but general population’s between one and 3%. So if schizophrenia doesn’t even hit 1%, it’s 0.9 I think, or 0.7 in the general population. And this is the DSM. So if they’ve printed it in the, DSM I’d say it’s pretty true. And that was done quite a while ago. So I’d be interested if those numbers change in the next DSM.

But yeah, just have a look in the DSM in terms of those prevalence rates. When we think of DID being about one to 3%, what else might be around that? BPD is around that. There’s a bit more, in terms of range for BPD, but if we’re working with people in trauma or if we’re working with people specifically around borderline personality, we need to also consider DID. Because it’s a one differential, but it’s just as prevalent. And so if we’re looking at, oh, there’s a change in mood. There’s the splitting of sorts, the devalue and idealization. That would make a lot of sense. If we have different head mates inside, there’s two different people’s opinions that are contradictory to each other, that’s okay.



But again, we just assume, oh, it must be BPD, the voice hearing. It must be schizophrenia. But just, yeah. I encourage folks to look at prevalence rates and see what is just as prevalent as DID according to the experts who wrote the DSM.

That’s a really good piece of homework for all of us to do after this episode. Joh, if listeners would like to reach out and receive clinical supervision from you, because of course your training and experience is very unique, and they may have a client that they’re like, oh, I need support with. How can they connect with you?

So I am happy to do supervision to anybody who is looking for it. I would just encourage, because I’m in Australia, so if we’re looking for supervision and we’re from a different country just understanding what the ethical guidelines is or what the requirement is, it might be called more mentorship or might not necessarily go under the term specifically supervision.

But folks are welcome to email. My guided healing psychology is generally where people will email for supervision. I’ve got my website as well, johannaknyn.com.au, and you can get me through there or just add me on Instagram and DM me, and then we can figure it out from there.

But I really like supervising other clinicians, not just you know, psychologists, but maybe a counselor or mental health social worker because we’re all working to help people. I think understanding that this is not so rare, even though randomly I don’t understand why there are so many articles. DID is such a rare diagnosis and I Googled because I’m just a weirdo that way. What is the actual definition of rare and it’s like a medical diagnosis and it has to be under, I think 1% it was like, this is just factually incorrect. We’re using a word that does makes no sense. What are we not fact checking in our articles? But it is not rare in terms of what rare actually means. And it is far more common, unfortunately. We don’t want to think that these horrible, horrific things are happening to children in our world.

We want to be like, yeah, that is happening, but it’s not here. It’s over there. Wherever there is and cults that’s not happening. That’s like from the movies. And if it is, it’s over there in some other space. Those things are happening and those people need our help. And rather than the consistent turnaround, I just think of the saloon door of therapy. They walk in, they’re asking for help. Oh, that’s too scary. I don’t know what to do. Refer on, they go to the next person. Oh, I don’t know enough about that. Refer on, and that’s why we’re taking 10 years to even get a diagnosis. That’s assuming, which sounds really morbid. It’s assuming these people can endure 10 more years of constant referrals, constant misdiagnosis. If you’re diagnosed with schizophrenia, get medicated. You’re not schizophrenic and you’re on antipsychotics. I wonder what that does because I’m not medical professional wonder that what that does to a person’s body, brain, having medications that you just don’t need.

Oh, good point. And Joh, you mentioned your book, so can you tell us a little bit about your books and then of course I’ll link to your books in the show notes as well.

Yeah, so again, glutton for punishment and I like helping people learn so that I’m not the only person to refer to. So I’ve written three books over the last 10 years. The first one. Is an e-book multiplicity. It’s to help folks who want to work, like therapists want to work with DID in an affirming way.

It’s A PDF, find it on my website. The plan is, over the next 12 months to turn that into a self-paced program as well. So it’s not just reading, there’s actually a bit more information around how do I apply this practically in the room. The second book is My mommy has multiple parts. There’s just not a lot of representation around parents who have DID and how do I tell my kids that I’m plural. So I wrote a kid’s book, and that’s available on Amazon, and website as well if we want downloadables or Etsy. And then the most recent one is the DBT for dissociative identities, or Dialectical behavior therapy for DID, in no way is it asking for any trauma stuff in the same way DBT doesn’t go into trauma processing, but it’s all skill-based Phase one work, it is adapting a lot of the DBT skills, not all of them, for systems. And that can be self-paced. So if folks are listening and we’re systems.

Hello, I see you if you need help and we’re still waiting for another referral. That book you can start right away. Or therapists can get it and work with their clients and so it feels maybe a bit more structured if we’re not sure how to proceed in the beginning. There’s a bit more structure in the room.

I love that. And again, like I said, I’m going to link to Joh’s books in the show notes, so feel free to head down to click on those.

And Joh, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today to explain the intersection of dissociative identity disorder and cultic experiences.

No worries. Glad to be on here and have people listen to my special interest.

And thank you everyone for tuning into today’s episode, and I hope you join me again soon on The Designer Practice Podcast.

Until next time, bye for now.

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