Show Notes

Kayla: Welcome back to the Designer Practice Podcast, and I’m your host, Kayla Das.

While many of us have taken courses during our undergraduate or graduate programs about how to provide inclusive services for specific populations, many of our trainings only hit the surface when it comes to practically implementing responsive practices when working with BIPOC and immigrant clients, especially clients who hold collectivistic values and beliefs.

As therapists and coaches who reside and train in the Western world, much of our learnings and practices are informed through a Western lens. But that doesn’t mean that such practices are effective or appropriate when working with specific clients.

In today’s episode, I’m sitting down with Ting Ting Pan, registered Psychotherapist, to deconstruct common practices and teach us how to de-pathologize collectivistic values when working with BIPOC and immigrant clients.

Hi Ting Ting, welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today.

Ting Ting: Hi, Kayla. Me as well. Thank you so much for having me.

Introduction

Kayla: Yeah, so before we dive in, please introduce yourself, where you’re from, and tell us a little bit about your own private practice journey as a Registered Psychotherapist.

Ting Ting: Sure. Yeah, so my name is Ting Ting and as Kayla said, I am a Registered Psychotherapist working in Ontario. So, my personal background is I was born in China. I moved to the southern US with my parents. And then we actually moved together to Toronto halfway through my high school. So I kind of grew up in a couple of different cultures. And so, I started my private practice about a year ago. So, I focus on working with BIPOC professionals who are experiencing issues like anxiety, stress and burnout, depression, trauma-related issues, and issues related to cultural identity. Because it can be quite conflicting sometimes growing up in the intersection of a couple of very different cultures. So those are the folks that I work with.

So, I work with a couple of different methodologies, so I use a combination of acceptance and commitment therapy, attachment-based styles, trauma-focused, as well as EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. So a couple of different methodologies there based on what makes the most sense for my clients.

Defining Collectivism

Kayla: So, when we think of really that the topic of today is collectivism and the values and beliefs connected to that, what is collectivism?

Ting Ting: Yeah, that’s a really good question. So, the word collectivism can be used to describe a set of values or a specific culture. But what it really means is that within the culture or within the set of values, there’s this idea of prioritizing relational harmony, prioritizing shared goals, over kind of the individual goals and the individual needs.

So, within individualism, there’s a lot of prioritization being placed on independence and autonomy. Within collectivism, the priorities are being placed on interdependence and relatedness.

Collectivism and BIPOC and Immigrant Clients

Kayla: So why is it important to consider collectivism when working with BIPOC and immigrant clients?

Ting Ting: So, I’m going to go to a personal anecdote here. So, before I became a therapist, I was experiencing a lot of issues with anxiety and stress myself. And so I sought out a couple of different therapists and all of them contributed a lot towards my growth and my healing journey. And I remember there was this one incident, and this happened a couple of times across different therapists. So, I grew up in a traditionally Chinese family, which holds a lot more collectivist values than your average Canadian family. And within our specific family set of values. My parents never really placed stress on me to be able to support them financially, but that is what I personally wanted to do. So that was my goal for myself moving forward, just because I have a lot of love and gratitude towards my parents. And within the wider Chinese culture, there is this norm of the child financially supporting their parents when their parents go into old age.

So, I was experiencing a lot of stress and anxiety. At the time, straight out of school, I wasn’t able to find a job like a lot of my peers. So, as you can imagine, that creates quite a bit of stress within like a new college grad. So, I was seeking therapy. To help me manage that stress and anxiety, and I think the couple of therapists that I saw, they really did mean well, but what ended up happening was they saw that I was taking on my parents’ financial goals as my own, and immediately that was a red flag. And so, the way that they kind of worked with me was almost they inadvertently pathologize the goal that I have chosen for myself.

So, they kind of saw it as, “Oh, my parents really push this on me.” There’s a lot of fusion and enmeshment in our relationships. And they saw their goal as helping me to be able to separate from my parents and to be able to really just let go of that financial responsibility. And now, looking back, I can understand why they thought this way. And I can understand that if they maybe approached it in a bit of a different way, this would have been a helpful approach in a lot of ways. But at the time, what I really took from this was, “Wow, my family dynamics are really unhealthy.” so I internalized that and it actually really messed up my relationship with my parents in a lot of ways. And so, again, now, looking back, I can clearly see that there was some misunderstandings about our specific collectivistic values here. And I really just wanted to make sure that as I continue going down this journey of helping other people in their healing journeys that I’m not pathologizing their family values and their potentially collectivistic values.

And again, as I do supervision, group supervision, and I meet other therapists, I can recognize that a lot of those biases exist in other therapists as well. So that’s why this is a very important conversation to me because once someone’s values are pathologized, or their very natural relationships are pathologized, that can take years to undo.

Kayla: Thank you so much for sharing your story here on the podcast, because something that we’ve actually talked about offline, I come from Westernist views and even some things that I incorporated in this podcast and the podcast pre-script showed that we are influenced by our trainings, by where we grow up by our beliefs, by our values. And I know you mentioned that you come from ACT, I use ACT as well. And that not everyone has the same values and not everyone has the same beliefs. And it’s easy to kind of come from our own values and our own beliefs and think that anything outside of that is a red flag. But in saying that, that’s not the case.

But I think a big part of this is also to understand that, this is what we talked about offline, was that it’s not about, feeling shame or feeling guilt for practicing this way, but it’s to learn and to grow from it. Because I want to really normalize the experiences of our listeners, and that we don’t have to feel shame about how we’ve been practicing, but now we need to learn from others, especially the stories that we’re hearing, and your experience is one of those. Now how can we shift our focus and move outside our values and move outside our, I’m even going to say trainings? Because obviously, many of the listeners have been trained in the Western world, and we’ve been influenced by that, but it does not mean that our clients, specifically, immigrant and BIPOC clients, have the same beliefs, have the same values. And like you mentioned, can almost internalize those as issues that then impact their family life or their home life or even their work life, depending. So, I appreciate you being able to share this today.

Ting Ting: Thank you. Yeah, that means a lot. Yeah, I think just exactly what you said. There’s no need to feel shame about any of this. I look back on my work with those therapists, and I have a lot of love for them. I don’t blame them. I know that they were doing their best and they came from a place of caring and love. And I think all of this is just to build awareness and just potentially make some potential shifts.

Kayla: Agree. I really appreciate this episode because it is definitely something that even I have thought since we’ve chatted like how I might be also utilizing my individualistic beliefs in my session, so it definitely promotes that awareness.

Ting Ting: Yes. And even though I grew up in a family with strong collectivistic values, I also spent the majority of my life in North America. And I hold many individualistic values as well. So, all of us hold a combination of both sides of the spectrum. And so, I’ve also had moments of really needing to collect myself and take a breath when I’m working with clients who, for example, recently immigrated or who did grow up in Canada, but they hold more collectivistic values than I do. Or they live out those values in a very different way than how I live out those values. So, I think this topic of how to work with collectivistic values or how to work with really values that are different from your own is a very important topic, no matter where you come from as a therapist and as a coach.

Collectivist vs. Individualist Values

Kayla: That’s a really great point. So how does collectivist and individualist values differ? And how might a therapist or coach identify collectivist client values?

Ting Ting: Yeah, I think that is such a good question, and it’s such a loaded question as well. So, I’m going to go back a little bit because, I think the important thing here isn’t so much to ask therapists to be able to label or categorize a value as collectivistic. The more important thing here is asking therapists to do that self-observation, self-reflection work so that when a client is bringing up their own set of values, rather than trying to define it as individualistic or collectivistic, maybe try instead to see what that value brings up in yourself as a therapist. And to see if maybe that brings up some red flags. Because the values themselves, depending on the client’s relationship to those values and how they specifically interpret those values, it could really fall on either side of the spectrum. So, maybe it would be helpful if we can talk a little bit about the potential red flags that come up as therapists working with BIPOC and immigrant clients.

Kayla: That would be perfect.

Ting Ting: Okay. Awesome. So, I was trying to think about this as I was preparing for this podcast and I think one of the biggest red flags, which I think is totally, totally understandable that therapists might have is when they see a client really putting other people’s needs above their own or putting a relational harmony above their own needs. And a lot of the times that can spark red flags of, “Maybe this client has low self-esteem. Maybe they have a low sense of self-worth.” If you work with family systems theory, maybe the words fusion and enmeshment might come up. That can kind of trap the therapist. Because as long as you’re coming from that view, you’re already pathologizing what the client is saying.

So, I just want to call out that within that view, there are a couple of myths here about collectivism. So, I think something here is that when we see a client prioritizing other people’s needs above their own, there’s this idea that the client is being almost coerced to do this. They can’t possibly be making this choice for the sake of their own good. So, they must be doing it because of some sort of outside coercion. And I just want to call out that this specific view suggests that autonomy can’t really coexist with collectivism. And that’s really not the case.

Two Definitions of Autonomy

So, there’s actually two potential definitions for autonomy. One definition is, I think, more in line with how the Western world sees it, which is that autonomy is really our ability to take independent actions that are not reliant on other people. Does that feel kind of familiar?

Kayla: Yeah, very familiar. And I’ve said this on the podcast, autonomy is one of my biggest values and has been a driving part of me going into private practice and to building my business. So that definition would definitely fall in line with my definition of autonomy.

Ting Ting: Okay, amazing. I’d love to hear that. And then the alternative view of autonomy is that it might be the ability for someone to act willingly and without coercion, but that doesn’t prevent this person from remaining loyal and connected to other important people in their lives. So, this alternative definition is provided by researchers Erdem and Safi, and I love this definition of autonomy because this really strikes true for me, based on my upbringing. And it also really shows that you can have autonomy while holding collectivistic values, in the sense that you can choose to prioritize someone else’s needs, if that person is really important to you. You can choose to prioritize relational harmony, even if it goes maybe against something that you really want for yourself at the moment. As long as you’re making that choice for yourself, knowing full well the consequences. And as long as you don’t feel like someone else is forcing you to make that choice. So that’s a very important difference in my mind.

The other myth here is that, I just want to really quickly re-examine this definition of fusion and enmeshment because those are things that we look for. And I just want to call out that these terms are really developed by Western psychologists. And that’s totally cool. But let’s decouple that a little bit. So, the view of fusion and enmeshment from the Western perspective is that when you have shared goals and shared obligations, that is a red flag that there’s fusion and enmeshment going on in these relationships. And fusion and enmeshment are like negative terms for the Western view. Because when you have fusion and enmeshment, it means that the boundaries between the self and the other are really diffused, and it doesn’t allow for individual autonomy. But the thing is, I’m going to get nerdy for a second, but when researchers do studies for fusion and enmeshment, Researchers who are doing studies in the US, mainly among participants who are mostly white, middle to upper class, highly educated, within individualistic communities like this, enmeshment and fusion has been really found to be linked to negative effects, like emotional dysregulation, family dysfunction, lower measures of well-being, mental health, and relationship satisfaction. So, this doesn’t really strike us as surprising based on how we conceptualize fusion and enmeshment.

But the other side of this is that researchers and other parts of the world, like Asia and Italy, and even families going under severe stress in the U. S. They have found that fusion and enmeshment have been actually linked to positive effects, like higher self-esteem and emotional well-being and positive coping. So, I bring this up just to help therapists realize that being in close connection with other people and pursuing shared goals with those important people, it doesn’t necessarily automatically lead to unhealthy outcomes. In fact, depending on the person and the environment that they’re in, it may lead to very healthy outcomes. So, when a therapist’s red flag goes up, I would just say that it’s time to get curious about why that red flag is going up. And when you get curious, maybe try to embrace that and bring that into the session with you and the way that this might look like is really getting to know how this client relates to this value, how they see this value, and how is it working for them in different aspects of their life.

Kayla: That’s a really great point. And I love how you deconstructed even some of the language and words that we use in our therapeutic modalities. And I think something that I’ve personally struggled with is even though we call this evidence-based, it’s often based in evidence in certain locations or certain jurisdictions, i.e. the Western world, especially if these approaches have been founded by people in the Western world.

So really what you had highlighted is that even though there might be evidence for this stuff. It’s to connect where it’s actually being researched and who is researching it. And really what the approach is even looking for. You really highlighted that the research can actually show these other things too, especially when people hold specific values or specific beliefs, because again, we are all individuals who hold our own values, our own beliefs, and even in evidence-based practices, everyone that they’re researching holds their own values and beliefs.

Ting Ting: Yes.

Kayla: So, I love that you differentiated that and kind of took that out of the box, we’ll say.

Ting Ting: Right, right. Yeah. Thank you for calling that out. I would actually just say, just hopping off of what you said, which is that all of us do hold our individual values and beliefs. And an important part of that is that where you come from doesn’t actually really dictate whether you’re more individualistic or whether you’re more collectivistic. So, I guess I wanted to call that out because I know that the title that we decided for today’s episode was working with BIPOC and immigrant clients, but anyone can walk in and hold a set of collectivistic values. So it’s really important for us as therapists to not make assumptions and to really just explore with the clients their own set of unique values as they come.

Depathologizing Collectivistic Norms

Kayla: Love that. I completely agree. So, now I’d like to talk about how can therapists and coaches rethink and depathologize collectivistic norms, especially when it comes to their own practice and how they interact and connect with clients?

Ting Ting: Yeah, I think that’s such a great question. So, I think the first step is going to get a little bit cheeky here, but to ask the listener as you’re listening to this episode to really just notice what reactions are happening within you? And that is a first step to noticing, the values that you hold and the relationships that you hold to those values. Maybe what we’re saying isn’t a surprise to you at all, and that’s awesome. So maybe you yourself already are practicing with a very culturally responsive view. I think one way to rethink and depathologize collectivistic norms is to do a bit of self-reflection and recognize how you relate to these norms. So, when a client is coming in and maybe they have a closer relationship to their parents or siblings than you yourself do, how do you yourself react to that? So, number one, I think, is always going to be know thyself and to practice that safe and effective use of self in the room with clients.

The other thing I love that you called out the de-pathologizing collectivistic norms, because a lot of the times. We and our clients do live in a wider individualistic society, and a lot of the times that means that when the client themselves are coming in they may already have internalized some of that pathologizing of their norms or their relationships or the way that they relate to the world. So de-pathologizing might need to be done not only for yourself, but also for the client. So what this might look like is to really get curious about how the client themselves are relating to the values that they currently are holding. Maybe those values are acting as shackles for them. Maybe it’s working out really well when they’re holding collectivistic values and their friend is also holding collectivistic values, in which case, maybe nothing really needs to change in that relationship. So, a really illustrative example of this might be you have a client coming in who is really, really good at anticipating other people’s needs who just go over and above and very proactively takes care of other people’s needs, but who really doesn’t say their own needs because they expect the other person to do the same for them. So, I would say that’s a more collectivistic approach. And then maybe they’re coming in because they feel so much anger and frustration and resentment towards someone who’s really close to them, who are just taking all of the gifts that they’re giving, and they’re not proactively anticipating the client’s needs. So understandably, there’s going to be resentment and frustration there. And the client may react in different ways. So, the client may look at this and say, “This is all my friends or this important other person’s fault. They should know exactly what I’m thinking because I’m trying to do the same for them.” So, there might be a lot of anger there to really examine, or they might be thinking, “Why am I so weak?” There might be a lot of self-criticism and shame around, “Why can’t I just tell them what I need?” So that would show that there’s some pathologizing going on.

So, in this instance, it would be really helpful for the therapist or the coach to perhaps take a step back, and maybe do a little bit of psychoeducation here, and to really examine the problem, not from the lens of who’s doing what to whom, but really from the lens of looking at this as a clash in values. The conflict is really happening here because the client and this other person are really speaking different languages. It’s two people trying to dance but one is like dancing ballet and one is dancing tango and so they fall into each other and they crash and everything goes everywhere. So, it would be helpful for the therapist to take a step back and to really re-identify the problem from a person-based problem to a values-based problem. And then, again, to really take another step back, help the client identify what their values are and then to see what their relationship to this value is. Where is it helping them? And where is it potentially harming them?

Kayla: I love that reframe of changing it from an individual or personal concern or issue to a values misalignment. And in my practice, I talk about values misalignment a lot because this goes back to regardless of the value if there’s a misalignment, it’s understanding that it comes back to that misalignment, and it’s not that this person is bad or this person did something wrong. It’s about that disconnect between what they value and what they believe they need to obtain that value.

Ting Ting: Yes, love it. Yeah, we’re both ACT nerds, so totally. One of the reasons why I love act is just because it works so well with cultural responsiveness.

Kayla: Yeah, I love ACT. I was a CBT girl before I found ACT. And ACT is now like my favourite thing. So, any therapist who is not trained in ACT, I definitely encourage it. It is such a great approach, or at least in my opinion.

Ting Ting: Love it. Love it.

Strategies and Approaches to Support Clients Who Hold Collectivistic Values

Kayla: So, what practices, strategies, or approaches can a therapist or coach use to best support their clients who might hold collectivistic values?

Ting Ting: Well, I think of this almost as the therapist and the coaches’ armor against pathologizing collectivistic values. And that’s really respecting the client’s autonomy. So, respecting that they have a reason for doing what they’re doing for making the choices that they’re making. And the other side of that armor would then be curiosity. So, I think curiosity is a really good antidote for bias and judgment. And so when you can come into the room, respecting the client’s autonomy, pairing that with getting really curious about their lived experience. Then I think that is a really, really good start.

Another thing is that it’s important to recognize that it’s okay when you have these value clashes. I think all of us have them at some point. But it’s not okay if we try to change our clients’ values to match our own. So, one is okay, the other not so much okay. So, when those clashes happen. When you get those red flags coming up everyone has their own strategy of grounding themselves in the moment. For me, in a session, it’s really to take a deep breath and press my hands into my legs and rub them to really just ground myself and bring myself back. And then it’s important to just recognize what’s happening, recognize that you do have this red flag going up, that there is the sense of discomfort. And then wrap yourself in that armor of respecting the client’s autonomy and getting really curious.

And then lean in and help the client to really examine how their values and their choices affect them. And maybe even help them identify that a little bit rather than judging those choices for yourself. And I think here, it’s really the difference between practicing empathy rather than rejection. So really trying to understand not how you would react in this situation, how you would resolve the situation. But taking a more empathetic view of how does the client really react into the situation and what’s the best choice for them. And I find that, again, just in that vein of getting really curious, using open-ended and exploratory questions is really helpful. So Socratic dialogue, super helpful.

And then asking for the client’s feedback on your reflections, asking them, does that feel right for you, or does that feel completely off? And that’s okay, too. So, instead of that, what might be a more accurate reflection? That can really help to put the two of you on the same page and to help you understand the client’s point of view.

When to Refer Out

Kayla: You know, I’m curious on at what point might be referring out be an option when it comes to I guess reflecting and understanding our feelings, our emotions, how our values clash, and then, of course, what would be best for the client at that moment.

Ting Ting: Oh, that’s such a good question. I don’t have a clear answer for this because I think that for everyone, your level of comfort is going to be different. And there’s always also supervision and consultation as well as referring out. And I think that for everyone, like, let me know your experience, but I know for myself when the client’s value is so different from mine, or almost opposite to mine it takes a lot more energy to go through the session with this client them with another client whose values might be more similar to mine. So, I think this is a very personal question and there’s no judgment on you, whether you decide to seek supervision, consultation or to refer out.

But I think a really important part of this reflection is, do you yourself have the energy and the capacity to be practicing this level of curiosity and withholding your own judgment and bias? And if you don’t, If maybe you’re completely booked up and you’re going through a lot of things in your own personal life, maybe this isn’t a good time for you to really give that extra energy in practicing these methods or skills. Depending on your personal situation, that might be a good time to refer out.

Kayla: I think that’s a really good point because something in private practice, and I’m going to admit in my mind, it happens too. As private practice, our sessions are income and regardless of the type of client or what’s happening sometimes being able to refer out even when it’s best can feel really difficult because that is a part of our paycheck now being referred out. But I think this goes back to really what you just mentioned, it’s a personal question, and it’s something that requires reflection. But also, from, I guess, the business side, of course, this is me putting my business hat on. It’s really understanding that you will get more money moving forward, right? Working with the clients that you feel drawn to work with and that you feel you have the skills, the methods, the strategies, especially when you reflect, will help save room for those who you feel you can support the best. It doesn’t mean that we don’t learn, expand, use these practices, right? But it’s really coming back to, and this is me putting my social work hat back on, when it’s in the best interest of the client, we have to realize that $130, $150, $200, whatever it is that we charge, that isn’t the cost for someone’s wellbeing. And that by referring out, if we feel that’s the best, you will get more money, you will get more clients, and you’ll feel a lot better by doing it. What’s your thoughts?

Ting Ting: Oh, 100%. 100%. I’m glad you brought up the business aspect of this because I think that– have you have those clients who walk in and who like have never seen therapy before and so they come in with the perspective of your kind of like any other service provider and you will do anything to kind of keep them coming back?

Kayla: Yes. Yes.

Ting Ting: Okay. Okay. Yes. So, I think for those clients, like it’s understandable we live in a capitalistic society. There’s probably been a lot of experiences of service providers kind of not doing things in the best interest of the client. And so, the client might naturally be coming into therapy having this level of distrust with therapists as they might have with other service providers. And so, I think the therapist’s ability to recognize, maybe I’m not the best fit for you, but I will do my best to help you find the right fit for you. That in itself goes a long way to establishing trust. And maybe that client will recognize that, “Hey, like this person is doing me a solid, they actually do care about me.” So maybe in the short term, you lose out on a session or two. But in the long term, you might even gain that back when the client is coming back to talk about another issue that they feel like you might be better able to support them with. Or they might refer you to their friends. So, I think that in our line of work, it really pays yourself and for the client to just really work towards their best interest.

Kayla: Yeah, I agree 100% because when we think of building that trust, and this is going to marketing, this is me putting my business hat back on. Its marketing is all about trust and marketing isn’t just your social media posts, it isn’t just your website. It’s how you’re making people feel, even if you’re referring out. And it’s okay to be transparent, of course, about that in saying “This might not be the best fit however, I know someone who I think might be” and providing those referrals as per our ethics, but also building that trust, you’re not just going to leave the client high and dry, but you’re being really transparent and then they are likely going to talk about you later in a very positive way. And you might get more referrals because of it, or they might come back because you’ve been transparent about why you might not necessarily be able to work with them. It doesn’t mean that issue or that concern or what’s happening is going to happen for them long term. And they might have another issue that you can support with, and they might come back to you.

Ting Ting: Exactly.

Private Practice Webinar

Kayla: I love how we tied all of this together. So, you have a webinar coming up supporting therapists who want to start a private practice, is that right?

Ting Ting: Yes. Yes. You got it.

Kayla: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about your webinar? How it helps listeners who are sitting on the fence when they’re wanting to start their private practice?

Ting Ting: 100%. Yes. A colleague of mine, so both of us graduated from Yorkville and both of us started our practices, and built it to full caseload within 12 months of starting the practice. And we were having a conversation with another colleague and a friend who was acting as an independent contractor for three separate practices. And this person is brilliant, she’s an amazing therapist, and she is breaking her back trying to make ends meet taking on more clients than either me and my other colleague are taking, but making less money than we are and being far more stressed out. And my colleague and I realized that there’s a lot of fear among mental health providers because we don’t get taught the business skills in school. And so, there’s a lot of fear and a lot of confusion around how do I start my own private practice? And how can I make ends meet? And how do I cut across the red tape and even get a business registered? So that was the initial reason why my colleague and I started this webinar.

And another reason is, as we just talked about, all therapists come with their own beautiful lived experiences. It comes from all different walks of life, and I come from the philosophy of the best way to support everyone in the community is to get therapists of all kinds doing this work. And as therapists, the best way that we can support our clients. Also, involves the best way of supporting ourselves. The more that we can ensure that we can achieve financial stability and independence ourselves, the more capacity we have of bringing our energy and bringing that back to the client.

So, my colleague and I are starting this webinar to help therapists to build their own dream careers and to make their practice work for them. And the first way to do that is to actually start their own practice. So, that’s why we’re doing this webinar. It combines months and months of research that she and I have put into starting our own private practices. And she and I went different routes. So, my friend incorporated, whereas I went the sole proprietorship route. So, we’re able to give advice and kind of a point-of-view on which route to go down.

I didn’t mention this in the beginning, but my background before I switched to therapy is actually digital marketing. So, we also go through how to market yourself, how to launch your practice and get really get it started with a bang. Basically, we’re trying to increase the value that you get from as little financial investment as possible. So, we go through very actionable resources and everyone walks out of the presentation with this step-by-step resource list so that they can literally get started right away. So that’s why we’re doing this.

So, the webinar that we’re doing is called Starting Your Private Practice and we’re doing 1 session on October 22nd and 1 session on October 25th. And the webinar is going to be an hour and a half. So, there’s going to be half an hour for a Q and A. And when we did this previously, we had over 90 people joined and the response was really overwhelmingly positive. We got a lot of good response saying that everyone learned a lot from the webinar and that they can now take action to starting their private practices. So, yeah, we’re hoping to bring this to more people.

Kayla: So, with respect to your webinar, is your webinar only for people in Ontario or is it Canadian-wide? Who can join your webinar?

Ting Ting: Yeah, so this webinar is for mental health practitioners across Canada. So even though my colleague and I are both in Ontario, the resources that we talk about are Canada-wide.

Kayla: Fabulous. So if you’d like to sign up for Ting Ting Starting Your Private Practice webinar, check out kayladas.com/tingtingpanwebinar.

That’s kayladas.com/tingtingpanwebinar

Or you can simply scroll down to the show notes and click on the link.

Ting Ting, thank you so much for coming on the show today and depathologizing collectivistic values for us while giving us some practical strategies to bring back to our own private practices.

Ting Ting: Thank you so much for having me, Kayla. This was a really lovely discussion.

Kayla: Thank you, everyone, for tuning in to today’s episode, and I hope you join me again soon on the Designer Practice Podcast.

Until next time, bye for now.

Credits & Disclaimers

Reference

Erdem, G., & Safi, O.A. (2018, April 30). The cultural lens approach to Bowen family systems theory: Contributions of family change theory, 10(2), 469-483. https://doi.org/10.1111/jftr.12258

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Music by ItsWatR from Pixabay

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