Show Notes

Kayla: Welcome back to the Designer Practice Podcast, and I’m your host Kayla Das.

When it comes to creating an LGBTQ affirming practice, we may wonder what are some of the things as therapists we should consider.

In today’s episode, I’m chatting with John Sovec, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and author of the book, Out: A Parent’s Guide to Supporting your LGBTQIA+ Child through Coming Out and Beyond to discuss ways that each of us can create an LGBTQ affirming practice.

Hi, John, welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today.

John: And I’m so excited to be here conversing with you and also sharing this really powerful information with all of your listeners.

Kayla: I’m so glad that you reached out to be a guest on our podcast because this is such a great topic, especially for therapists and coaches, who may not necessarily have the experience or training and this is definitely something that will help them in creating that affirming practice to support their clients.

Introduction

But before we dive into today’s episode, please introduce yourself, where you’re from and tell us a little bit about your practice journey.

John: So once again, my name is John Sovec. I’m a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and I’m here in Pasadena, California. And for me, my journey has been like a fascinating one. Growing up I was always that kid, and I’m sure a lot of yours can relate to this, who everyone like sat down and told all their troubles to. I could be on a camping trip with friends and we were sitting around the fire and then they would suddenly open up about challenges they’re having with their parents or stuff like that.

So, this therapeutic coaching side has always been a natural part of who I am. It was really exciting for me though when I decided to go to grad school and actually learn the art and science behind being a therapist, being a counselor. And it was a really powerful journey for me because it took my natural intuitive skills and now brought this deeper, fuller background into it. And the same with coaching training for me, it’s about like, yeah, I have these ideas, but then getting trained allows you to move in a space where you actually have a stronger point of reference that you’re coming from.

The thing that was interesting for me though, as an openly queer man, is that in my grad school training, there was actually very little conversation about the LGBTQ community. And especially not about LGBTQ youth and the coming out process. And as I realized that I kind of opened up to me that this was a space that I really wanted to specialize and work in. And so outside of my school training, I started attending more trainings, reading lots of information, getting the latest and the greatest so that I could step into this field and be a really powerful LGBTQ affirming therapist. So, it’s been a really cool journey and a very personal journey for me as well.

John’s Journey as an Author

Kayla: That’s fabulous. And as the introduction stated, you’re an author to a book. So, can you tell us a little bit about your journey becoming an author and, of course, writing your book?

John: You know, it’s always been fascinating because all of my friends have always said, “Oh, I can’t wait to read your book someday.” And I was like, yeah, that’s a really great idea. But the business of our business sometimes takes up a lot of time, client time, all of the things it takes to manage what we do as therapists and coaches does take up a lot of energy. And I also knew for myself, and this is a very personal decision that I wasn’t interested in self-publishing. I really wanted to have the backing and the teamwork of a publisher to be able to really make the book a more powerful experience, both for myself and my readers. So, in that choice, I had it very clear in my mind.

And a few years ago, a publisher actually reached out to me because of the work I’ve been doing in the LGBTQ youth community and proposed that we do this project together. And it was really cool as they reached out. And of course, at first, I was a little bit like, “Okay, who are you people? How did you find me?” Did my research. And then I interviewed them back. I talked with their head editor, and when we were talking, I said, I would really like to have my editor to be someone who is part of the community. And she said, I know exactly who I’m going to connect you with, connected me with the editor I worked with, who is an openly queer man as well. And it was such a powerful experience having the support of a team, sending chapters out to them, having them give me feedback. And in that feedback, helping to develop my voice in the book, which is such a beautiful, beautiful thing that I don’t think you can develop just doing it on your own.

Kayla: Yeah. Thank you for sharing your experience, thinking of self-publishing versus publishing. And I know that’s not what we’re talking about today, but self-publishing and publishing, what made you choose say publishing over self-publishing?

John: For me, I think it was having the guidance of professionals in a self-publishing world, at least for myself, I know that there are lots of pitfalls that one can fall into, writing something, thinking it’s amazing, but not getting feedback that says, “Hey, by the way, people aren’t understanding this. it’s not necessarily as clear concise as you’re hoping to.” And when you work with a publisher and you have your own editing team, they’re really amazing. My main chief editor gives me lots of feedback and I said, helped me to develop my voice. But then when the book was finished, it goes into the copy editor, who goes through and catches all the crossing the T’s and dotting the I’s and using a semi colon. And I’m a big fan of the Oxford commas. So there are Oxford commas throughout the book. It’s my thing. I love it. And then they also had a content editor. And this is someone who was actually not part of the community, was reading it from a very outsider’s point of view. And my copy editor was so amazing because they would catch inconsistencies. You spoke about it this way in chapter 3, but in chapter 9 you referred back to it and you spoke differently. Is that what you meant? And then catching those and helping to clarify, because that’s what a reader would experience. And so having all of those layers of support, I think made a much more powerful book than if I had just written it on my own.

What is an LGBTQ Affirming Practice?

Kayla: Fabulous. So, let’s dive into today’s topic. So, when it comes to creating an LGBTQ affirming practice, what does that mean really?

John: For me personally, even though I am an openly gay man, I’m part of the LGBTQIA+ community. It wasn’t just enough for me to assume that that lived experience was all my clients would need. So, it was about getting additional training. It was about looking about being queer across the lifespan. It was talking and reading and learning from experts in the field who have been doing much deeper work than I had been doing up to that point.

And I think anyone who is looking to step into working with our community, it is that type of commitment to really understanding what the day-to-day life experience of what the developmental process is and really connecting into that work on a deeper level.

I have a little bit of a bone to pick and I’m very open about this comment, but a lot of times you’ll see therapists saying that they’re LGBTQ friendly. And what that often seems to read as is, “Oh, I’ve got a cousin who’s gay and we love them seeing them at Thanksgiving.” And for me, I don’t believe that that’s enough. I believe there has to be a commitment to studying, learning, resourcing, finding community allies, finding places you consult with on things that you may not be familiar with, to take that next level step to then be able to call yourself an LGBTQ affirming therapist.

Kayla: That’s fabulous. Also differentiating an affirming practice versus being a friendly practice, because sometimes as therapists, we may put up our flag and say that we’re an LGBTQ friendly practice, but in saying that, what goes beyond those visuals? What goes beyond kind of the verbiage that we’re saying? And what I hear you saying, it’s continuing to learn, it’s getting the additional education, seeking those supports and really supporting your clients as you would any other client, right? Making sure that their needs are being met.

John: Well, and one of the big things I think that any coach or therapist can do if they want to work with the community is to make sure that you have a strong resource of LGBTQ consultants available to you. Now, there are aspects of this work that I do not have lived experience of, and I may hit something that I need to know about. And I can reach out and consult with different people who are experts in this work to find out what I need to do to be more affirming, even the work I’m doing with my clients. And that right there is that big, big, big step for us to be able to walk up to where our weaknesses are. To be willing to learn, to educate, to consult on those issues, and if we are not well enough trained to bring them into our practice, to be willing to refer out.

One of the examples I use, I’m a really big referral machine here for lots of the people that I work with in the community. So, if someone comes to me with an eating disorder challenge. It is something that I have light training in I’ve learned through my work over the years, but it’s not something I’m an expert in. And for me, especially with eating disorders, this can be a life-or-death situation. So, I will refer that person out to people that I know in the community who are experts in this work. What I want your listeners to understand is it’s actually the same with LGBTQIA+ community, that some of the things that may come into your room are life or death moments. They are moments where people are struggling with deep internal processes that you need to understand as a clinician to be able to walk through that. And to walk through it fearlessly.

If you’re sitting with a client who is looking at some trauma from the coming out process when they’re younger, it’s not treated the same as just a trauma modality. We are looking at not just individual trauma, but community and cultural trauma that plays out in these conversations. And that’s why this idea of having consultation, having a referral network can be incredibly powerful to actually making you a more positive LGBTQ ally.

Best Practices for Therapists and Coaches for Supporting LGBTQIA+ Clients

Kayla: That’s a great point. And I think you touched on a little bit of this question, but what are some of the best practices or ways that therapists and coaches can support their LGBTQ clients? And also, are there any practices that you’ve seen that are outdated or counterproductive to providing an affirming space?

Basic Level of Education and Understand the Nomenclature

John: I would say one of the first things is, is get your most basic level of education, understand the nomenclature the words that are used in our community and understand the history of those words. And how they apply to a client who’s sitting across from you. In the beginning of the book the first two chapters are really just about creating a vocabulary to help parents and professionals communicate with their clients. And that is the most basic level that we can step into this at to have that ability to catch up with the language.

And as I say in the book too, it is a constantly changing field out there. So, if you’re going to work with our community, you’re going to need to stay aware, you’re going to need to update yourself. Because I’m not a big believer in that our clients are there to educate us. If a client comes in and says, I’m aromantic, and that’s not a word you’ve heard before, it is not your client’s job to educate you. What I do encourage is educate yourself, find out what meanings it has that you can discover. And then we work with a client. How does that show up in your world? How does aromantic affect your day to day living experience? So that’s on the most basic level.

Open-Ended Questions on Practice Paperwork

I think, though, if we really want to set up an environment that is affirming to clients, it is from the first moment they step in the door, when they get your intake work. Is your intake work gendered? This shows up a lot and people don’t even think about it. Do you have like check boxes for married, single? Okay. Well, what about other potential family relationship statuses that can occur? When we talk about gender, male, female? And here’s the one that gets a lot of people, the word other. So, here’s the deal with the word other. Other is a very triggering word for a lot of people because many of us in the LGBTQ community have felt othered, made different, pointed at, teased, bullied because of our identities. So, when you have these others as part of your check boxes, it can be really challenging for someone who’s coming into your practice.

Once again, some of the ways that I do this is I use more of a narrative style. You know, how would you describe your current relationship status? How would you describe your gender? How would you describe your sexual orientation? These are all some very basic levels from the beginning of the conception of a client coming to meet you. And oftentimes, especially if we’re working with trans and non-binary clients, they’re going to come on the phone, you’re going to hear a certain sound that over your years of life experience, you have associated with a certain gender. But that may not be the gender of the person you’re talking to. So, how do you develop this idea of using gender neutral language and tell your client shares with you what their pronouns are? So, then you can join them at that space. And once again, these are the most basic steps that we can take. And a lot of clinicians are really stumbling over these moments in their practice.

Kayla: I love that you spoke about having more open-ended questions. And I think that even we think of marital status or family set up that could be encompassing a lot of people, right? So, having these open-ended questions allows people to answer the way that they feel comfortable instead of having that checkbox, do you fit within these parameters?

John: And we’re also saying that those are the parameters of the practice that we’re putting out into the world. It’s so fascinating because I am so, as a therapist, sex positive and gender, sexual orientation exploring positive, that I have this great story that I love to share. I had this very definitely straight male client who came in and we were talking about stuff and we had a really great therapeutic alliance building. And then one day they were talking about, “Hey, it’s really difficult dating in high school. I just keep feeling like I’m failing.” And because I am who I am. I simply said, “Well, are we talking about just girls, boys, a little mix of both? What is it that you’re actually looking to date?” And because I’m so casual about it and so comfortable in my skin about asking this question, this kid who stereotypically should be offended maybe by this type of question said, ” Well, I thought about boys, but I don’t think they’re quite my thing.” And we were able to have that really open, open space, which helped us to move deeper into the conversation about dating for them. So oftentimes it’s our comfort about talking about things like this about sex and relationship and about lifestyles that may be off the checklist that can make it easier for our clients to connect with us.

Importance of Knowing Your Limitations When Working with the LGBTQIA+ Community

Kayla: That’s fabulous. So, when we think of therapists and coaches, why is it important for them to know their limitations when working with the LGBTQ community?

John: So, on its most basic and, unfortunately challenging level, especially with LGBTQIA+ youth, we have incredibly high suicide rates. And they are on the rise because a lot of the political rhetoric that’s going around in the world right now. And kids because of social media are aware of all of this. So, understanding that for some of your clients, finding a supportive, affirmative place is actually a life-or-death moment for them is really important to understand. And you may be the only adult in their world, as their therapist or their coach, you may be the only person stepping into their world who can be affirming and create an environment for them to talk about this journey they’re on. And that for me is the number one reasons why it’s so important for therapists and coaches to have this type of training and background or to be willing to refer out.

International Coming Out Day

Kayla: So, tomorrow is International Coming Out Day, and that’s October 11th. So, tell us a little bit about that, and what might you be doing tomorrow?

John: Well, since I’ve already come out on the podcast, I think I’m okay on that part. So, it’s really beautiful because it started here in the United States as National Coming Out Day. It’s always October 11th and the first one was back in 1988. And it was actually in response, in memory of the National March on Washington for lesbian gay rights. Really looking at that empowerment of being willing to step up to the plate and be seen and heard.

And so, it started developing as National Coming Out Day and it kind of caught fire and it’s happening all over the world now. That October 11th is a day for people who are willing, ready, and able to step up and come out to family, to friends, to community, to workplace. To be willing to say, “I want to stand proud and loud and let you know who I am.” And one of the reasons why this is so incredibly important is for people to be able to see themselves, recognize themselves and know that, “Hey, I could come out. I could be seen. I’m looking up and I’m seeing that celebrity or I’m seeing that musician or I’m seeing that TV star or that sports figure, or I’m seeing a teacher at school who’s willing to be out and open.” All of those levels of being out provide a safe space and an inspiration for LGBTQIA+ kids to see themselves in the world and know that it is okay for them to simply be who they are.

Kayla: Is there anything that maybe therapists should know or should consider about International Coming Out Day?

John: Well, I think what we talked about earlier, so what’s happening in your community? Do you have an LGBT center that’s doing something to celebrate the day? Is there things from online communities that are celebrating the day that maybe you want to bring into your social media? If you are putting out information to the world, do you want to share that in a newsletter or a post or speak about it openly to an event that you may be participating in. Maybe showing up if there’s any type of event going on in your community or at your schools that you may be working with. As an ally, be willing to show up and say, my voice is here to stand by your side and support you in this amazing process.

Referring Out is a Powerful Choice

Kayla: So, I am going to bring us back a little bit. I know earlier you mentioned referring out is a powerful choice. So, can you share a little bit about this and why you think this is?

John: For all of the people who are listening, which are therapists and coaches who are looking to build incredibly powerful practices, creating a network of people around you in the community that you can comfortably refer clients out. People who may not be part of your ideal training and population. People who you may not be able to see because of scheduling or cost. People who you may not be able to see because you currently have a wait list and you hear their needs. It is incredibly powerful from a business standpoint to be willing to refer out. It does build this amazing network and it becomes reciprocal and you build respect in the community. You build respect with clients who are reaching out to you.

I cannot tell you how amazing it is when I have conversations with clients and we realize sometimes let’s say it’s because of financial reasons that I’m not a good match for them, that I will sit with them say “Well, tell me a little bit more specifically what you’re looking for.” And I say, “Okay, so there’s this community-based resource that I know of. There’s another clinician that I really enjoy working with who has a lower fee than I do. Or there’s also therapists and coaches who are in training who may have a lower fee as well.” And at the end of those conversations, what I always hear from these people who’ve reached out to me is like, “Thank you for taking the time to do this.”

Years ago, my practice became powerful and full, I realized it wasn’t about marketing me anymore. It was about marketing the idea of what psychology and coaching can do for people. And at the end of those conversations, clients are taking away this understanding that these therapists people, these coach people are very caring and kind people, and it speaks really well to the work that all of us are doing. And that’s why I think being a referral engine, creating a network around you to help support clients that you may not be able to work with says a lot for our industry as a whole.

Kayla: I love that. And there’s a few things you touched on there. And something you talked about there is referring out is a powerful source because it helps generate networks and referral sources, people will reciprocate that. And if your ideal population and your training doesn’t necessarily align, or you don’t necessarily feel you have the skills at this point. What you’re doing is you’re putting your client before your own needs. And sometimes as therapists, we think we have to work with everyone. And we think that by working with everyone, and sometimes it might be that philosophy of that we need to work with everyone, but sometimes it’s even from a private practice perspective, the money that comes with it. But putting our clients first and referring out, you will get referrals back, right?

John: And I think what you’re pointing out is also really important, especially for newer businesses and practice to understand is that the seeds that you set with your marketing, they are long-term seeds. They need to be nurtured. They need to be fed water. They need sunlight to grow. And by grabbing on to every percentual client who comes in and trying to move against your basic instinct of like, “I don’t know if I’m the best match for them, but I need the dollars in my bank.” You’re actually doing a disservice to yourself, to the business of therapy and coaching and to your future long-term practice.

I often see people going into this practice thinking about everything has to be immediate. I’ve been open six months and I’ve only attracted three clients. Am I a failure? It’s like, “No, you’re not a failure.” Marketing is a long-term commitment. It is based on authenticity and honesty and being willing to get involved in things so that you become a person that people refer to. And one of those ways of doing it is being willing to refer out. Because remember, if you have a client that you’re working with, you do not have the proper training to work with them you’re going to be frustrated. They’re going to be frustrated. They’re probably going to leave. And then if someone says, I’m looking for a therapist, they will never mention your name because they had a bad experience.

But let’s say, as I talked about earlier, I’ve referred you to someone who turned out to be an amazing connection for you. And someone says, “Hey, I’ve got a queer kid and they just came out to me and I don’t know where to go.” You’re going to remember that you had that great experience with John Sovec, who referred you to a clinician that was the right one for you. All of this stuff connects and for anyone who’s listening, understand that marketing and building a brand is a long-term investment and it’s worth creating those networks, creating those connections to build it and make a sustainable practice.

Building Trust Through Marketing

Kayla: Yeah. Marketing is built with trust and trust takes time. Trust isn’t immediate. It isn’t given. And through all of those things that you just identified, that’s building trust. You’re building trust with the mom. You’re building trust with the child. You’re building trust with your referral networks. And that is what’s going to start building your practice.

As a business coach, yes, your psychology today and all of those things matter as well, and there’s creating connections through those. But the number one will always be the networks you create, the word of mouth, the referrals. And by referring out, you’re building trust.

John: Well, and Kayla, I’m going to tell you a dirty little secret. I haven’t been on any therapist directories for years.

Kayla: Really?

John: Yeah. I have not. I, when I first started, I was on like three or four of them and what I found is they weren’t necessarily attracting the clients that I needed or wanted for my practice. And I kept looking at it and you know the message is be on all the directories. And what I found is really doing the community-based work. I do a lot of media stuff. I do a lot of writing beyond the book. And all of those things helped build my reputation and my brand. So quite a few years ago, I actually pulled myself all of all the directories.

Kayla: That’s fabulous. And I strongly support directories and actually I help therapists write therapist directories. But in saying that, yeah, building those in-person relationships will always be number one, right? Out of all the marketing you ever do, whether it’s social media, whether it’s SEO, whether it’s putting an ad in a newspaper or a therapist directories. Building those referrals because that’s where you build a trust, right? You’re building trust with people.

John: And I know we’re kind of out in our own left field right now, but I have one really fun thing that I want to share with your listeners, which turned out to be an amazing process that I learned for building community relationships and turned into referral sources. So, because I work with adolescents, I decided to reach out to all of the schools in the area and I went online. I found out who their psychologists were and I sent out an invitation is for tea and treats. And what I did is I would come to them during a break and I would bring either coffee or tea and then like a treat from, we have some great bakeries here in Pasadena and sit down and offer them a pastry, a hot coffee. And we would just chat and I would get to know them. I get to learn more about their school. And then after that was done, I would send them an email saying, “Thank you for taking the time. It was so great knowing you.” And then every six months or so, I will reconnect to those. And I’ll be like, “Hey, hope everything’s going well. I’m more than happy to come by again, but here are also some things I’ve been doing.” As I shared with you, I think before we went on the air, I just did an NPR, National Public Radio, interview. And I’ve sent that out to them. I said, “Hey, this is so cool. I want to share it with you.” And so we’ve built these relationships simply based on me doing this simple thing of showing up with coffee and a croissant and sitting down with them for a brief moment. And this has turned out to be an incredible referral resource for me in the work that I do with adolescents.

Kayla: Yeah, and the best way to anyone’s heart is through their stomach.

Additional Practices for Creating an Affirming Private Practice

So, before we end for today, do you have any additional advice or insights for therapists and coaches who want to create an affirming practice and become an ally?

John: I would say the number one thing is education, education, education. A lot of you listening may have a willingness to work with the LGBTQIA+ community and take that willingness and committed to time to understand and educate. Picking up a copy of my book is a great place to start. Looking at some of the national organizations that are providing affirming care and learning from them. Finding live or online trainings that will help you to deepen that. Because I think the ability to be able to ask questions while you’re learning how to work with our community is really important to, to move through some of the anxieties or fears or biases or agendas that you may be carrying. And let’s be honest as therapists and coaches, we all do have our biases and agendas from our lived experience. And so being able to have that training and be able to ask questions and to work through stuff and conversation can be really powerful.

And setting up consultation networks so that you know if you hit something, you have a trans non binary client come in and you’re struggling, then consult with someone who is of lived experience in the trans non binary community. If you have a couple that’s coming in is talking about more kink affirming practices, have a conversation with a professional who works with that community. Be willing to take these steps, so that you can then say you’re not just LGBTQ friendly but you’re actually LGBTQ affirming.

John’s Book

Kayla: If someone did want to buy your book, how could they buy it? And tell us a little bit about what they could expect if they purchase your book.

John: So of course, you can buy it on Amazon and places like that. But for your listeners today, if I actually go to my publisher’s website, which is JKP Publishing, Jessica Kingsley Publishing, and when they go to the checkout, use the code OUT25, you can get my book sent to you for 25% off.

I love this book so much. It means so much to me. And what it covers, as I said earlier, it’ll look at basic nomenclature. What is the verbiage that being currently used in the community? It’ll look at the coming out process itself. What is it like that people are going through? And remember coming out is a lifelong process and it can happen at any age. You know, we talked about National Coming Out Day being tomorrow. You may have kids in school coming out. You may have a 65-year-old grandma coming out. All of these things are part of this coming out process, and it is a lifespan process to understand.

It’ll also look at the journey that parents are going through. And I also have two chapters, and one’s about your teen going through a relationship, and one’s about your teens having sex, because I always tell any parent, if you imagine your kid is not having sex, you are totally misguided in that thought process. And with those two chapters, especially at the end of them, I say, and realize this could be used with any of your kids, not just your LGBTQ kid.

We also look at parents and professionals becoming allies to the community and also looking at some of the roadblocks that may come up in our pursuit to become affirming people. So, all of that’s covered in the book and lots, lots more. It’s a fun book to read. It kind of has my sound, my voice, that kind of casual, let’s sit down and have tea and talk about tough subjects together.

And going back to what we talked about earlier, that’s what my editor helped me to develop. So, I really recommend this, not just for parents, but also for allies and professionals who want to work with the LGBTQIA+ community.

Kayla: So to buy John’s book, Out: A parent’s guide to supporting your LGBTQIA+ kid through coming out and beyond, check out kayladas.com/johnsovecbook

That’s kayladas.com/johnsovecbook or you can simply scroll down to the show notes and click on the link.

And don’t forget to use the coupon code OUT25 as a special bonus for listening to this episode to receive an additional discount at checkout.

John, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast and sharing your insights so that we too can create an LGBTQ affirming practice.

John: Thank you and I wish all of your listeners the best in helping to develop their LGBTQIA+ allyship so we can create a world where National Coming Out Day will be a celebration.

Kayla: Exactly. Thank you everyone for tuning into today’s episode and I hope you join me again soon on the Designer Practice Podcast.

Until next time, bye for now.

Credits & Disclaimers

Music by ItsWatR from Pixabay

The Designer Practice Podcast and Evaspare Inc. has an affiliate and/or sponsorship relationship for advertisements in our podcast episodes. We receive commission or monetary compensation, at no extra cost to you, when you use our promotional codes and/or check out advertisement links.