Show Notes

Kayla: Welcome back to the Designer Practice Podcast, and I’m your host, Kayla Das.

Have you struggled with whether or not to use self-disclosure in sessions?

Well, I’m going to be the first person to admit that yes, I’ve struggled. Throughout our trainings, we’ve been told to be empathetic and human, yet never ever self-disclose anything to a client. Or at least this is the narrative that I’ve taken away from my training.

But isn’t being empathetic and human and never using self-disclosure mutually exclusive?

What if a client asks you a question about yourself? Do you just sidestep it?

What if you have some insight from an experience that, from your rapport with the client, you’d feel that would be valuable and supportive? Do you just avoid saying it, even if you know it could help?

Or what about if you really want to start a podcast or write a book about your own life journey or story? Just because you’re a therapist, do you keep that aspiration hidden and avoid following through with your dreams in fear a client may learn too much about you?

Now, I think we all know some of the reasons on why self-disclosure is discouraged in our trainings, such as to avoid making generalizations about clients’ experiences, to avoid taking the spotlight from clients, and depending on the person or population, protecting yourself from potential emotional or physical harm.

But the real question is, is all self-disclosure bad? And can we actually use the power of self-disclosure for good in our sessions?

Well, in today’s episode, I’m sitting down with Elizabeth Muhle, Registered Social Worker and author of the book Soaring with Burnt Wings: Lessons in love, life, laughter and surviving unimaginable loss, to redefine the way we use self-disclosure in therapeutic relationships so that it doesn’t have to be so taboo.

Hi, Elizabeth. Welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today.

Elizabeth: Thank you so much, Kayla. It’s an honour to be able to be on your show. I’ve listened to many of your episodes and found them really helpful the last few months.

Kayla: Oh, well, thank you so much, Elizabeth. It’s so great to have you here. And this is such a great topic. It’s a topic that I don’t think we talk enough about. So, I’m super excited to dig into this.

Introduction

But before we do, please introduce yourself, where you’re from, and a little bit about who you are and your practice journey.

Elizabeth: Well, I’m Elizabeth Muhle, as you said, and I live in Okotoks, Alberta, which is in Canada, just south of Calgary. And I’ve been a social worker for nearly 19 years, which is kind of crazy to actually realize. And these last 11 years, I’ve been focused on counselling. And I’ve been working for Alberta Health Services for those past 11 years as a family counsellor.

And a year ago, in January of 2023, I opened up my own private practice, Illumination Therapeutic Services in Okotoks, which has been a long-standing dream of mine, so it’s been very awesome to actually have that turn into a reality.

Kayla: Well, congratulations for taking the step into private practice. But I know that your experience being a therapist has really supported your therapeutic journey, even before going into private practice.

Self-Disclosure and the Therapeutic Relationship

So, from your experience, how has the avoidance of self-disclosure and the use of self-disclosure influenced your work as a therapist, whether it’s positively or negatively?

Elizabeth: Well, as you mentioned earlier, we often get the messaging as therapists that we shouldn’t disclose anything personal to our clients. There’s almost this unspoken rule, or maybe it actually is spoken, that we’re not supposed to do self-disclosure in our sessions. And yet we’re also supposed to be authentic and are told that the therapy relationship has the greatest impact on the trajectory of treatment for the client. I never really understood how I could bring myself to the room while leaving my story and all the things that contributed to me being the way I am.

Unfortunately, this resulted in me experiencing a lot of imposter syndrome for many years as a therapist. I’m really feeling like I couldn’t do therapy like some of my colleagues who seem to remain neutral or simply rely on their training of CBT, EMDR, motivational interviewing or whatever modality they were following.

My desire for other therapists who might also be confused by this mixed messaging or feeling that they also are an imposter or not doing therapy, quote unquote, right, was actually why I reached out to you and asked to talk about the use of self-disclosure. Now I truly view it as one of my superpowers in the therapy room. While I have a variety of trainings, and some of them I really love and actually utilize regularly, it’s me, a human being with the vast experience of life, who sits in every session with my clients.

And, you know, back when I was really still feeling like an imposter, pretending to be doing therapy when pulling from my own life experiences and not simply from a textbook or workshop, I started getting feedback from my clients. And I still continue to get this really regularly. They would tell me how real I was. That they didn’t feel that there was something wrong with them because I too had struggled in similar ways. They would talk about how hearing my story or me relating to them gave them hope that they too could find their way through it just as I had.

A lot of times my clients would thank me and discuss how they had seen many therapists before over the years and never found the transformation they had with me in a few sessions. This feedback allowed me to really stop feeling like the use of self-disclosure was something I had to be ashamed of and hide from my coworkers, and instead realize that when used therapeutically, it can make all the difference.

Kayla: I agree completely and thank you for sharing your own journey because when we think of self-disclosure, and I want to go back to what I mentioned kind of in my intro, is sometimes when we think of just the word relationship, relationship means give and take, right? Now, I know it’s very different when we think about the therapeutic relationship. But in saying that, if we are going to never, ever, ever disclose anything to our clients, even when asked. Or we’re afraid to put ourselves out there in certain ways, because we’re afraid a client may learn too much about us, from my own perspective and my own experience, I don’t understand how that really supports the relationship long term. And that’s because, again, if a client asks you anything, right? Like, “what was your experience?” Do we just say, I don’t really talk about that? I mean, we can gently say, “Well, this session’s more about you.” But I think even if a therapist said that to me, I might be like, “I’m really asking because I want to know.”

Elizabeth: I 100 percent agree. I think a lot of times, we want to keep the focus obviously on our clients, but I do also believe if they knew the answers or why they’re feeling that way or the way out of that, then they wouldn’t be in front of me. They wouldn’t be asking me these questions. And so sometimes it’s about me asking the questions and exploring that. And other times it’s actually giving them those breadcrumbs and helping lead them and guide them and have those conversations. And yeah, shining that light of, okay, this is how I’ve trudged through this or whatnot. And I think that absolutely can be okay.

Fears, Worries and Misconceptions About Self-Disclosure

Kayla: So, what are some of the fears, worries or misconceptions that you’ve heard about when it comes to using self-disclosure as a therapeutic tool?

Elizabeth: Well, as we’ve kind of alluded to, I think historically we as therapists used to really rely on the power difference between us and our clients. There’s this whole idea that’s still perpetuated in the media of us behind the big desk and the client laying on the couch, right? And it’s hard to maintain that power imbalance when we’re being transparent about our own struggles. I love to use the ones that I’ve overcome more so than necessarily the ones I’m currently in to varying degrees. I think there’s times when I’m doing parent coaching that I can relate with a parent regarding a struggle I’m currently in with my daughter. But I might not do the same thing if it’s a current struggle with my husband, depending on the degree of that, right? So there obviously has to be some discretion used as a therapist with those.

But I think a lot of the time the fear comes from this idea of this power difference and us being respected, needing to be seen as quote unquote professional, and that that will be undermined by us being somehow human in that client’s eyes. And, I’ve had a lot of colleagues that have worried that you know that respect will really be diminished and they’ve wondered how I can do that while still actually holding my client’s respect.

But I truly actually believe it works the other way and that when clients start seeing us as human, they build that respect. They’re willing to try the things out that I’m talking about because it’s not coming from a handout. It’s coming from a human being that’s lived it.

Kayla: I am totally aligned with what you’re saying, because when we think of self-disclosure, it’s often viewed as this really negative thing. And of course, there is a line, and we’re going to talk about what that might be. But, when we’re human, we’re authentic. And when we’re authentic, we can be ourselves and feel more comfortable. And I think this goes back to what you mentioned earlier, the imposter syndrome, right?

I mean, there’s so many reasons on why we might experience imposter syndrome, but I know for myself, and I know from talking to other therapists, it’s when we’re trying to be fake, or we’re trying to not be ourselves, or we’re in our thinking about what shouldn’t I say, or even what should I say. Instead of really just being in the moment with the client.

And it’s interesting because many of the therapeutic modality says be in the moment and we teach our clients that. But it’s really hard for us to be in the moment because we’re so worried about, what do I say? What don’t I say? Am I allowed to say this? All of these thoughts and then the fears and then the physiological pieces. And our clients can feel it even if we try to avoid showing some of those emotional pieces, they can see that we’re uncomfortable.

Elizabeth: Absolutely. I definitely agree with that. And I think there’s a power in, I think it is a bit of self-disclosure in that moment of saying, “I don’t know,” right? When a client asks us a question or presents us with, maybe, a struggle that we’re actually not really familiar with like OCD, for instance, not something I work a lot with. So if I have a client that’s struggling with that, I’m going to be transparent about that. Whereas historically, when I was more green and starting out, I pretended I knew everything about everything. And I could help you with any problem you could possibly come across my desk with. While inside freaking out and going, “Oh my goodness, like this person has no idea that I’m inept to do this job.”

And so, there’s real power in sometimes sitting and taking a moment. I remember I had a supervisor years ago that’s like, “You don’t have to answer right away. You can breathe a couple of seconds and think about it.” And there was a lot of power in that, allowing that silence, allowing myself to think. And then sometimes just saying, “You know what, I’m going to have to get back to you. I’m actually not sure I’m going to have to do some consulting and look into this.” And I really think that even just that moment of self-disclosure of where am I at physiologically and education wise and ability right in this moment, not even necessarily my whole life, but just in this moment across from you has a lot of power. And I would way rather, when I have been the client to have my therapist say that than to pretend their way through it.

Kayla: I agree 100%. And when I was going through workplace burnout, I had a wonderful therapist. And I can’t remember anything we ever talked about in sessions, but one thing and that one thing was quote unquote, self-disclosure. And that changed my life for the better. And it also brought me into private practice and is why I’m sitting here right now doing a podcast so that I can help other therapists and private practice.

And I’m okay with sharing what that was is I was just sharing how so burnt out I was and all of this. And my therapist said, “that’s why I went into private practice.” And I was like, Whoa, right? I didn’t even think that private practice could be a thing for me, like owning my own business. I was on a total different trajectory of running other people’s organizations, not my own. And as a result, I reflected on that and I thought on that. And I think it was maybe like a week or two and then I was like, “I’m going to set up my business. I’m going to start doing all the processes.” But before that, it never even crossed my mind.

And I spoke to my therapist after about that. And she said that was very intentional, because of course she could see that a lot of my values and a lot of what I wanted in life was very aligned with business, but I didn’t see it. And that was very intentional. And that was self-disclosure. And that is the one thing that I remember. And that’s the one thing that was pivotal in my mind. If my therapist chose not to say that that day, I might not be sitting here today. I might not be happy and I might still be burnt out. And I don’t even want to know where I’d be.

Elizabeth: It’s interesting. While I was listening to that. I was thinking back when I just had a few minutes ago in regards to that power imbalance. And there’s so much beauty in the power your therapist held there by using self-disclosure. So, while there’s that fear of, “Well, somehow we won’t be as powerful and therefore won’t be respected.” You just demonstrated the power that she had and she showed you that snowball effect that can happen at times as therapists. We will say one thing or ask one question or give one little tidbit of something. And it’s like the light bulb goes off in the client’s mind and they make all the connections and then they can run with it, right? Well, that is the beauty. That is the hope, right? Is we’re, ironically, always working ourselves out of a job hoping that the client doesn’t need us the next session. But yeah, so that’s really cool. That’s a great example.

Self-Disclosure as a Therapeutic Tool

Kayla: So how have you used self-disclosure as a therapeutic tool in your therapeutic relationships?

Elizabeth: So, at times I use it to relate and normalize a struggle a client is discussing. Maybe it’s a parent struggling with sleep deprivation due to their kid still waking up in the night and I’ll groan and be like, “Oh, I so get that. My daughter had me up two times last Wednesday night and it’s so hard to function the next day.” I often see clients almost melt when they feel seen and understood in this very casual way and that’s a snippet of self-disclosure.

Since becoming a mother parent coaching has increasingly become a passion of mine and I have many clients who either seek me out around finding joy in parenting and learning how to have their own identity. And being able to show up as the best version of themselves as a parent. Often one of those first questions in a consult that they’ll ask me is if I’m actually a mother myself. And regardless of whether their child is older or younger than mine, somehow that one fact seems to grant me credibility in their eyes.

I think grief therapy is probably also another area that I really rely on a lot of self-disclosure and I find clients really appreciate that I get it and are more willing to try the suggestions I discuss working for myself and my own healing journey than they would be if I just handed them a worksheet full of ideas. My own experience with grief seems to give me almost credibility with them to push and hold them accountable to balance their feelings of grief, but also the need to re-engage in their lives.

And since publishing my memoir, I’ve had clients specifically seek me out and actually want to work with me because of having read it and wanting to have that support to get to where I am and how I described that in the book. This is not something that I had anticipated at all when I was writing it and I really needed to sit with my own vulnerability and the feeling of discomfort of being fully seen and process my own emotions about being so transparent about some of the most difficult experiences of my life.

Even for me, who, as I’ve said, thinks it’s one of my superpowers being able to use self-disclosure, having a client know such intimate details about my life did definitely feel uncomfortable initially. But the way that it has been received and the respect and trust I have witnessed my clients who have read my memoir, seem to have for me now as a result, has really strengthened my belief in self-disclosure and challenging that power difference that we talked about being between the therapist and the client.

And just briefly, other times I’ve used self-disclosure is when working with someone who has a learning disability or believes that they are stupid or really struggling but are undiagnosed. I’ll share about not learning to be until I was 13 and my struggles with learning differently than our school system teaches.

And at times I’m working with self-harming individuals or those experiencing suicidal ideation. Again, being able to speak from my own experience of what worked and how I went from struggling with that on almost a daily basis for six years when I was younger, to now feeling joy and connected and truly loving myself, often provides just enough inspiration and hope for my clients to trust me and try things out that I’m suggesting.

Kayla: A lot of what you just shared goes back to what I always say, and again, I’ve always got my marketing hat on. I know people are like, “You’re so on the marketing side and the business side that even when we’re talking about like the therapeutic side, I’m always thinking marketing.” And I always say to people, you want your clients to know that you get it.

Not that you always have to go through something to help someone. But when you have been through something, you have a gift, you have an experience, you have an outlook that might be very different from someone who has not experienced it. But overall, when we think of putting our own experiences forward, even if we’re not necessarily putting ourselves on paper. By our own experiences and our own recollections and our own acknowledgement of what we’ve been through, we can really empathize differently because we’ve also experienced that.

People know that in my therapy practice, I work a workplace burnout and stress and that’s primarily because I was burnt out and experience stress. And that’s what brought me to private practice and does that mean I always talk about myself. Sometimes? Maybe not. But if I do, it’s very intentional. If I don’t, I can still come from that internal place of I get this so I can empathize differently. I can show up differently because I have experienced it.

Not saying, and I want to be really clear to listeners, doesn’t mean you have to be through something to be able to help people, but there definitely is a gift in being able to have those experiences so that you can support your clients.

Elizabeth: I fully agree. And as we’re talking there, I was thinking back on years ago, I think maybe two or three years after my late husband had passed, I was working with a mother who lost her son and I chose strategically initially not to bring up my own loss at that point. She just needed somewhere to process. And so even though I didn’t talk about having had any grief, any of my own experiences, I think it was maybe the third session and she said, “Who did you lose?” And I was really shocked and kind of taken back by the bluntness of her question. And I think I put it back to her and asked her, “What makes you think that I’ve lost someone?” And she said, “I know. I can tell, the way you talk, the way you get it. The suggestions, the way you hold space. Like you’ve lost someone that’s very important to you. Who was it?” And so I told her at that point that my husband had passed. And it was beautiful. And again, then she actually asked to hear about him and wanted to know more about him. And we ended up actually showing pictures of my late husband and her son. And really did this very unconventional therapy session of two humans who have lost someone that they deeply loved and how to allow our hearts to heal. And that has stayed with me. That particular session and the fact that somehow very quickly she was able to tell that difference. So, you’re right. We don’t have to necessarily use our words for our clients to feel the difference in that we get it.

And I have fully also agree that, I can do wonderful work and have done wonderful work with clients that I have never had that experience with them. And I think that many of us can as therapists when we’re really good at empathy, right? We can transfer that, but there is a bit of an extra umph and power we can dig into when we have gone through something.

Kayla: It creates an additional layer of connection.

Elizabeth: Beautiful way of saying it.

The Imaginary Line

Kayla: So earlier I mentioned about this imaginary line. So how do you determine this imaginary line between quote unquote too much self-disclosure that may no longer be therapeutic versus quote unquote too little self-disclosure where the therapeutic relationship may be impacted by the therapists’ reservation to self-disclose anything about themselves?

Elizabeth: This one’s a really hard one to define. For me, which might not be super helpful for other people, it really comes down to intuition. I read the client, so obviously this is easier as you build a rapport with the client, you get to know them, you know their body language, when their face is engaged when they’ve shut off as you’re explaining something. Whether that self-disclosure or how to do a breathing tactic, you kind of learn when you’ve lost your client. And so that’s honestly what I rely on is watching them. And so whether I’m telling a story that might have a little bit more detail with the self-disclosure. Sometimes they’re eating it up. I can see them lighting up. I see the hope. I see them kind of leaning forward, right? They’re hungry for that connection that suddenly I’m giving them. I’m validating that there’s not something weird and wrong with them for the fact that they’ve experienced this or they’re experiencing it. And I’m speaking their language. I’m saying things that they’re feeling and they may not even have the courage to say to me yet because they’re going through this thing and I have had some experience. And so, then I know I’m safe to keep doing, keep going and kind of finish that.

Others I’ll get that glazed over look or just their energy shifts. Again, that intuition. And “Oh, got to wrap this one up. They’re not receptive to this.” I either have chosen the wrong disclosure or the wrong time or have gone on too long with it, something. And it’s just not hitting home, which happens and that’s okay. And I used to get really scared when that would happen and be like, “Oh. Nope, this, I can’t use it.” And you know, it didn’t actually, in my opinion, affect the report at all. They still continued coming. So, it’s really reading each person and shifting and being okay with that and just staying in that relationship. That’s kind of how I do it.

 Kayla: There’s two things that I took from that. One, again, going back to the word I used earlier, being authentic, right? Like really understanding kind of yourself and how you want to show up, because as a therapist, you may not be someone who wants to self-disclose much, and that just might be who you are as a person, and that would, be totally okay, right? And then you may be someone who is more comfortable being able to self-disclose, especially as it relates to the therapeutic relationship and as a result, disclose more.

The other thing that I took from that as well is that really encouraging the client’s feedback, and using that feedback, right? And I actually know at the end of all of my sessions, I always say, “how are you feeling today?” And what worked? What didn’t work? And then if they feel that they can say, “Well, you know what, I didn’t really like that you said X, Y, and Z.” And then that’s great, because now you know moving forward, that that isn’t something that resonates with that client. And I also think that imaginary line is different for different people and it’s different for different therapists and it’s also different for different clients.

Elizabeth: Absolutely. And I think respecting that. Like you said about authenticity, another therapist could listen to this podcast and then go, “Okay, I’m going to use that” and then feel so uncomfortable or anxious. And I think it’s okay if you do a little bit when you’re first trying it out and playing with it, but if that keeps going or just feels yucky, then this might not be for you.

But if you are someone that really wants to or already is but feels like, “Darn, I’m not doing real therapy” or you’re feeling like that somehow makes you less of a therapist, then that’s where I’m really wanting to encourage that. That’s where I’m saying, you know what, give that a go because you’re right. There are all those different types of therapists and then yeah, just figuring out what your clients like. I would say 98 percent of my clients, absolutely, I love the fact that I will throw a little snippets in and as I’ll get to in a little bit here, some of them actually seek me out specifically because of that.

Helpful vs. Unhelpful Self-Disclosure

Kayla: And this actually brings me to something I’ve heard a while ago and I’d love to hear your opinion on it and what you think is, I’ve heard before that self-disclosure is positive as long as it’s aimed to help the client versus us using that time for our own, I guess, recovery or our own needs connected to that. So, what do you think about that? And does that kind of relate in how you look at self-disclosure using it as a therapeutic tool?

Elizabeth: Absolutely. I think when I first was starting to use it and not feeling as much of that imposter syndrome, I definitely would kind of have almost like a little mental checklist of what’s the purpose? Who benefits from this? How am I hoping to help them with this? Am I just talking for the sake of hearing myself talk, right? And so, if I could answer those, and I thought, with my best intentions that this was actually going to be beneficial for that client, then absolutely. Again, you can’t guarantee that it’s going to land. Just like I can’t guarantee every coping skill is going to land with that client, even if I think it would be the great one, they may not actually really like it. But same thing goes with kind of our examples. But a hundred percent, I think it really has to go back to how will this benefit them versus just wanting to say something to say something or yeah.

Kayla: Yeah, and I agree with that as well because even going back to my example with my therapist like she was like this was very intentional. And I even think that as therapists, we are still human. And there’s going to be times when we might say something, and it might not be intentional, right? But it’s again, we’re human and people know that. And then as long as we’re encouraging that feedback and being able to say, ” I appreciate that you had shared that.” but, again, going back to that intentionality, it’s, who is this intended for? And who is meant to benefit from that?

Putting Yourself Out There

But this brings me into another little segue. So, I know you wrote a book about your life, your memoir. If there is any listener who worries about putting themselves out there, whether it’s through writing a book, starting a podcast, writing a blog, anything that might encourage their own life story as a part of that, but they’ve been holding themselves back due to fear, it’s going to be perceived as some sort of self-disclosure, or a client might get their hands on it and that’s too much information for a client to have. Do you have any advice or insights to help listeners who might have this fear?

Elizabeth: Honestly, I’d say just do it. But in all honesty and seriousness, I’d say dig deep into your why. Why do you want to put this thing out into the world? Who will it help? Who is it about? Is it simply something you really desire to do and more for yourself, which I think is absolutely fine? Or is it because you see clients struggling with something that you have a lived experience with and you want to share your knowledge? Once you know your why and allow that fire inside you to start to burn all the fears of who will read it or who will listen to it or how that can be used or interpreted seem to become secondary.

I really do believe that the world needs our voices. People want to learn from us and they want to grow from us. Or for the listener from you, they want to learn from you. So why not utilize your story to really impact countless people more than we can actually even just reach in our therapy room because them are limited to our hours, right? So, if you have a podcast or blog, a book. You don’t even know the reaches. Again, that just snowballs out. It can feel really uncomfortable, especially at first. But I honestly can’t think of anything I’ve shared over my business social media, in my memoir, or in any sessions that I actually regret. So, I truly believe take that risk. And for those of you that are listening, I would love to hear if this inspires you. And you do that and write a blog or a podcast book, let me know. Seek me out. Tell me that you listen to this podcast and then shoot me off that link. That would be so incredible.

Kayla: Fabulous advice. Yeah, and I would agree. Obviously, I haven’t written a book, but even on the podcast, and of course, it’s a lot about business and therapy, but I do share a little bit about myself too. And maybe business clients, as well as previous therapy clients, might hear it. But again, similar to what you said, it’s not anything that I wouldn’t want anyone to know.

And the other side of it too, and people may disagree with this point of view, but thinking of self-disclosure in a session is very different than you having additional dreams and aspirations. And having a podcast, having a book, writing a memoir, whatever it is, I would not see that as self-disclosure because someone is not necessarily in a session with you paying for that session. You now have a whole different avenue and if they read it, they read it, right? I mean, that’s totally their prerogative to do so. But in saying that, I would not view that as self-disclosure. I’ve had some business coaching clients worry about putting who they are in their social media or on their website or whatnot in fear of using self-disclosure.

But I think it’s again, going back to that authenticity is who you are and how comfortable you are with putting yourself out there and doing it. Fear will always exist. And I’m just going to tell anyone, if you haven’t started your private practice fear exists. If you started your private practice, you know you experience a lot of fear when you started. And every part of business and every new thing that we’ve taken in our lives that we’ve never done before. There’s going to be fear there. But really, it’s to go ahead and do it anyway, because the worst is not going to happen, and you might get everything that you wanted out of it.

Elizabeth: I think you’re right I think that comes down to with some of those, when we’re not in the therapy session. I think it comes down to that fear of vulnerability, right? Of exposing ourselves, of being seen, and again, there’s absolute beauty in that. But I think it’s Brene Brown that talks about it as a vulnerability hangover, and I use that term a lot, which I definitely experienced with writing a memoir, putting it out there, knowing anyone could read that, and not knowing necessarily, or having zero control, obviously, about how they might interpret that, or what meanings they might make.

But there’s also once– I don’t know if you ever get over it, but once you get a bit more comfortable in the discomfort of that there’s some liberation. So, with my business social media, I’m very transparent. Whenever I have blogs or not blogs, I guess posts, which are almost more like blogs, I love to write. My husband has to vet them if they’re about him. That was kind of our deal. So, I’ve had them about sex. I’ve had them about arguments. I’ll do things around that because it’s real and I get feedback from people like that really hit home or you really normalized this which is really cool.

And, this summer, we’ve lost both of our family dogs, which has been heartbreaking for us. And so, I included photos of like their last walks of how we processed that with my daughter, how to talk about grief with children. I had a photo of myself sobbing and holding my dog. And so really dug deep into that vulnerability on social media. And I had really lovely outpouring of people resonating with that.

Kayla: I think it makes you human, right? And one of the things therapists struggle with is, “I don’t want to be that car salesman.” And it’s hard to not be the car salesman if you don’t put yourself somewhat into the story, right? Of course, there’s certain avenues. And again, I’m going to think back of, as a business coach, not all of my stuff have my personal stories in it, but it’s still relatable. It’s still tries to connect with people.

It’s not, this very generic stuff, because generic stuff doesn’t get viewed, doesn’t connect, and again, going back to authenticity, even for yourself, it’s what feels right for you, what doesn’t feel right for you, and that’s what’s going to differentiate you from that car salesman, right? There’s no right or wrong way to do it.

Elizabeth’s Memoir

So, I know we talked about your book a little bit but is there anything else you’d like to share about your book for any listener, who might be interested in checking it out?

Elizabeth: Absolutely. So, my memoir is called Soaring with Burnt Wings, as you mentioned, and it was written following the death of my late husband, Cam. So, we actually just passed the 10-year anniversary of his passing on February 15th. And, so it’s been a while now, being 10 years, but it’s still, obviously with grief, I think you get more comfortable and used to walking with it. It never really goes away. I know a lot of clients will be like, when is this over? And I’m like, sorry, at first that bubble, it doesn’t go away, ebbs and flows and gets more intense and less intense. And we just get used to kind of carrying it with us and learn how to cope.

I initially wrote various sections; it was not written from what it is now from the start to the end by any means. It was written in little snippets. Honestly, never with intention of having it be published. It was more kind of as a journal, but not quiet journal free flow it was still put more in the way it actually has been written but that’s just how I love to write as well. And so, it was really to process my loss and try to solidify my memories of our time together as I was really afraid that I was going to actually forget some of those intimate details which ironically I actually have and unless I sit down and reread it and I’m like “Oh right that happened?” Or “those were the medications” and I of course remember the big pieces. But when it came to his illness, a lot of the smaller details I have forgotten.

So wrote the majority of it within a year and a half, and then it just kind of sat on the computer. And then years later, when I was on my maternity leave, I asked a bunch of my friends I was in a book club with to read it. And just see if they thought there was anything there, if it was possibly worth publishing. And, Cam, before he’d even gotten sick, he’d always said, when he’d read any of my writings, or my papers in my master’s program, or all those different pieces like, “You are such a writer. You need to write something.” And I was like, “What would I write? Like, what would I publish?” I wasn’t a fiction writer. I liked to write real things. But I didn’t know what to write about at that point, especially for a big book, it felt daunting.

So suddenly I had all these pages and pages of my life and stories and this true love story. And so, I thought, “Well, maybe there’s something here.” So, I had the different ladies, I think there was about 10 of them read it. And then hearing from them after they all read it, when we met together, how my unedited, very unedited version touched so many of them and the ways that they actually related to how I described myself feeling and the emotions I was going through, even though none of them had experienced a similar loss, really solidified that this book was something I actually wanted to put out into the world.

Within it, I cover my struggle of loving him while he struggled with addictions, which he did in our early time together. How he found sobriety and how we navigated that together, our experience of our world really being turned upside down when he was diagnosed with cancer at 27. And that was just 11 months before our wedding was planned to happen. And so, no, we ended up actually having two weddings, one right after he got diagnosed because we didn’t think he would still be alive. They didn’t think he’d make it for that 11 months. So, we had a quick one, he was still alive, so we didn’t end up having our originally planned one with everyone.

And, then he actually went into remission and the steps that we took to heal his body and mind when really the medical system didn’t have much hope for him. In the memoir, I discussed in excruciatingly intimate detail, the emotions that I experienced as I watched him disappear and die. And the powerlessness I really felt to stop that. And then I ended with discussing the steps that I took to find me again after he died. To find joy, to rediscover meaning and embrace love, which has allowed me to meet my current husband and have our wonderful daughter, whose middle name actually is Cameron, after my late husband.

So, while it didn’t start being meant to be the book it now is or to be as inspiring as I think it ended up being, and I’ve been told that it is. Really, I think now it’s not just about grief, although there are definitely lots of people that have read it, have given it to friends and family that are grieving. But I honestly really believe it’s inspiring for anyone who’s lost sense of themselves and is trying to find that spark to live again. So, I’m really actually quite proud of how it turned out. That I was able to be so authentic and vulnerable throughout it, while also balancing the honour and respecting of my late husband’s memory, his life and our love for each other.

Kayla: Wow, it sounds like such a powerful book. And going back to vulnerability, putting vulnerability forward and being able to share this with the world so that they can also feel supported and not feel alone through the journey you had experienced.

Elizabeth: Yeah, absolutely. I really hope that those that read it find themselves in some part of it and can relate and just realize that we can have such excruciating pain and difficulty and disappointment and all of that heartbreak, right? Like, I always say life is beautiful, but it’s also really brutal. It’s a pretty big mixture. And yet it doesn’t need to define us. It doesn’t need to immobilize us. We can feel it and feel it fully and then still step into the light and still create ourselves. And so that was the messaging I was hoping to bring through it.

Kayla: Fabulous. So, to buy Elizabeth’s book, Soaring with Wings: Lessons in Love, Life, Laughter, and Surviving Unimaginable Loss, check out kayladas.com/elizabethmuhlebook

That’s kayladas.com/elizabethmuhlebook

Or you can simply scroll down to the show notes and click on the link. This link will also bring you to an Amazon page, so if you have an Amazon subscription or you use Amazon, that’s where it’s going to take you.

Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today and sharing your experiences and insights and your vulnerability so that we can redefine the use of self-disclosure in the therapeutic relationship.

Elizabeth: Thank you so much, Kayla. It’s been an absolute pleasure to be here.

Kayla: Thank you everyone for tuning in to today’s episode and I hope you join me again soon on the Designer Practice Podcast.

Until next time, bye for now.

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