July 9, 2024

Episode 72:

What You Weren’t Taught About Burnout in Grad School with Robyn Krugman

In this episode, Robyn will share the things that she had learned from her recovery from burnout and she’ll provide tips and tricks to help prevent burnout in your life.

Episode 72: What You Weren’t Taught About Burnout in Grad School with Robyn Krugman

Show Notes

Kayla: Welcome back to the Designer Practice Podcast and I’m your host Kayla Das.

In grad school, we don’t learn a lot, if anything, about burnout. Yet it is so prevalent in our field. In fact, I don’t think the word burnout has ever been said in either of my graduate or undergraduate degrees.

Unfortunately, whether you’re an employee in an agency, or you’re running your own practice, burnout can hit when you least expect it. I know firsthand.

Personally, I wish that I had learned more about it in school so that I could have recognized that I was experiencing burnout before it gotten so bad. Well, today we’re going to talk about it so hopefully you can recognize and manage burnout symptoms before it takes over your mind and body.

In today’s episode Robyn Krugman, owner of Take Control of Your Practice, will share the things that she had learned from her recovery from burnout and she will give some tips and tricks to help prevent burnout in your life.

Hi Robyn, welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today.

Robyn: Hey Kayla, thank you so much for having me.

Kayla: Robyn, before we dive into today’s episode, please introduce yourself, where you’re from, and tell us a little bit about you and your own practice journey.

Robyn: Sure. You know, it’s sort of funny. I always find the introduction the hardest part and not knowing what to say and. But to tell you a little bit about myself and my practice and my journey, I am a therapist and a mom and I live and work in New Jersey. I opened my private practice in 2019 and then went full steam ahead in midst of the pandemic.

And in the past two years, I started my other business, take control of your practice, because as I was experiencing my own burnout and realizing some of the errors that I made in my process and how I was operating my practice, I really felt that other therapists needed to be educated on how to run their practices in a little bit more of a business sense. I know most of us don’t think of ourselves as business people as we think of ourselves as having a private practice and you know, those ideas of business and marketing and all of those things. I think for a lot of people feel slimy. And I wanted to help people in a way that felt authentic and caring and loving and both nurturing to themselves as well as their clients.

Kayla: I like that you mentioned that we don’t always look at ourselves as business people in our practices. We run a practice. And I think that that in itself, can lead to burnout, right? Because we’re doing some of the things that we really, one, weren’t prepared for, but two, really don’t enjoy.

Robyn: Yeah. And that’s so true. And I know most certainly I had no business training in grad school or any of my CEUs. And so a lot of what I’ve learned and figured out is trial and error. And I think the idea of treating your practice more like a business feels so important in the idea of preventing burnout. And yet there’s so much resistance amongst our peers of doing that and setting boundaries and being clear about their needs and priorities. And there’s also, I think these narratives in the mental health world are, ” well, I’m not in this for the money,” you know, and we are in fact. Are in this for the money. This is our careers. And it is okay to have money as a factor in building our business while still making our services accessible.

And we don’t look at any other service provider and say, how could they charge that much money or how could they charge that fee. If you call the dentist, for example, and they offer you an appointment, you say, I can take that appointment or I can’t, the dentist doesn’t feel bad or guilty for not being able to give an appointment. So I think there’s a lot of narratives and stories within the mental health field that are contributing to these little nuances of how we’re showing up and how we’re not honoring our boundaries and our needs and our priorities.

Kayla: I agree with that 100 percent because I even think of when you book a doctor’s appointment, there’s always a fee if you’re a no show. And I know a lot of therapists have trouble, managing no shows because it’s like, oh, do I charge? How do I do it? Honestly, my doctor has no problem saying, you know what, you’re going to get charged 100 bucks if you don’t show up

Robyn: Yeah. And I think in building Take Control of Your Practice I really think of all of those little things, right. That we shouldn’t feel bad about charging a no-show fee. And it’s also okay to have a policy where everyone gets a get out of jail free card. You know, you get one free pass because that may not work for some people. That’s how I choose to run my practice, but everyone’s human. And as a mom, my kids get sick or things happen. So I feel like that flexibility of you get one free pass. And then after that, I will charge it.

And it’s again, sort of that strange dynamic. You wouldn’t get mad at your doctor for charging the fee. And so, I think there is a little bit of tolerance on our end to be able to hold space for, our clients aren’t going to be mad or upset and they might push back and we can still say, we know this is frustrating and this is the policy.

Kayla: Yeah, a hundred percent. So I know when we chatted off air, you mentioned that you had previously experienced burnout yourself. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what that looked like?

Robyn: Yeah, so, and I want to be fully transparent because I would say, not experienced in the past. I would say currently experiencing. For me, things have shifted in a way where I feel like I need to take a break because I keep hoping that the symptoms are going to clear on their own and it turns out magical thinking doesn’t work. But to talk a little bit about what this process has been like, I feel like it’s so important because the more and more people that I talk to, I think the predominant thing is people feel alone. People feel something is wrong with them. People feel lost, disconnected. And even when you have a good peer support network and supervision to experience the way that burnout feels and then feel alone and something is wrong with you, that’s awful.

So, I think to tell a little bit about my journey, you know, I mentioned at the beginning that, and I think for all of us in the pandemic, things picked up and were insanely busy. And for a moment in time, I thought, “wow, this is what a thriving practice is like. I am busy. I have a wait list. I’m booked every hour of my week that I want to schedule.” Now in hindsight, not leaving myself time for lunch. Having a lot of challenging clients. Going through a traumatic experience at the same time as my clients.

So, the idea and mindset of, “wow, this is what a practice is supposed to be like.” It happened just so easily. And then All of a sudden, I started feeling that I didn’t care. I’d be sitting with clients and I’d be there in body and my mind would be somewhere else. I’d be watching the clock, wishing for the sessions to be over. I would pray for my clients to cancel. I’d feel myself a lot of like counter transference coming up, feel like angry, annoyed, irritated at them. And I’m grateful that I have a really good peer support network and a good supervisor that was able to process all these feelings, but to be sitting in a place where empathy and connection and attunement are the most important parts and I’m like, “okay, get me out of here.”

 And I think the other things that were starting to come up for me that just were so new and foreign, having a lot of somatic symptoms. I wasn’t sleeping well. And I actually started to wish I wasn’t a therapist anymore and feel that I can’t do this for the rest of my life, which I’m 20 years into this profession, which that in itself is wild to think about. I never thought I’d be like that grown up enough to be a 20-year therapist. But to have this thought at an ongoing thought of, I would rather do anything other than be a therapist. I think that that was the thought that really made me think something is wrong. And I think just some other nuance symptoms.

That made me feel like, is this depression? Am I going through perimenopause? I just felt like blah and apathy, which is not my personality. And so all of those things really led me to kind of take a look at what is this and what is happening? And what are the causes of why I am feeling this way?

Kayla: Thank you for sharing your story. When we think of burnout, it does show up in a lot of different ways. Like sometimes even people enter into private practice because they are burnt out. And that was my story is that I was running organizations. And I love it. I love running businesses. Hence why I’m a business coach and also why I started my own. But

I was feeling extremely burnt out and it got to a point where I just felt I couldn’t do it anymore. And as a result, I jumped into private practice as a way to get out of my burnout. And fortunately, in my experience, I don’t believe I’ve experienced it since, but I’ve allowed myself to pivot into the directions that fit me and my internal motivation and what I love to do, i.e. business coaching, podcasting, all of these, like being able to help others in those areas.

Robyn: Yeah.

Kayla: But I’ve heard from a lot of therapists, what actually pushed them into private practice, they might have been thinking about it for a while, but they’re like, “Oh, I’ll do it in five, 10 years,” but it’s not until burnout hit they’re like, “I can’t do this anymore. I need something new.” So that’s the move into private practice.

Robyn: Yeah, and I’ve heard that so many times as well. And what’s alarming, I supervise a number of provisionally licensed social workers and other therapists, and they are entering the field already feeling burnt out from grad school, from internships. Unfortunately, I think those first jobs out of grad school, they give you as many clients as you can possibly see. And often the most challenging of clients in that right out of grad school job. And so that’s really something that’s eye-opening to me is, how new social workers and new therapists are coming into this field from the get go.

Kayla: Yeah, I totally agree with that. So has experiencing burnout influence or impacted how you work in business in any way? In other words, did or do having burnout change how you run your business?

Robyn: Yes, 100%. When I first started my practice, and I think like many of us, I made a lot of mistakes. The first mistake I made is I took any client who called me. And my mindset was, how do I build a business saying no to people? And I took on clients that I knew from the very first phone call, I shouldn’t do this. And that anxious brain came in and said, but you can’t say no. How do you build a business this way? And so that is most certainly a change that I have made. And feel very comfortable in having a really strong referral network. I work primarily with adults and so I have a really strong couples network therapist. I have referrals for kids. I have referrals for psychiatrists. I have referrals for people who are in different modalities than I am. And feeling very comfortable in I can say no, and also, I can still handhold, I can still be a gatekeeper, which feels right to me because I understand how hard it is to find a therapist and the right fit therapist. And so that in itself has actually been an interesting dynamic because I’ve said no, and referred out, and that interaction alone has yielded referrals. If someone calls me for their teenager. They may call me a year later and say, “Oh, I called you a year ago for my teenager, but now I need some support.” and so I think identifying who my niches and feeling really clear on that and confident that is okay.

The other things that have changed when I first started, I would schedule people any day of the week, any time that they were available. And my kind of script, if you will, was very much client centered. It was their needs first. What day is going to work for you? What time is going to work for you? And so, what I found is I was scheduling myself in days and times. That I didn’t want to work. And that actually didn’t work for my schedule and was then feeling resentful and angry and annoyed. “Well, why do I have to see this person at seven o’clock?” I did that. And so, for me, there was an aspect of getting really, really clear on what does my schedule need to look like? And how do I build in lunch? What are the times that I want to work? What are the other things that are important to me? So, for me, it’s really important for me to be able to drive my kids to school and to be able to work out in the morning. And I actually don’t want to get up a minute before I have to. So, I leave time and I don’t schedule my first client until 10 o’clock, which is so nice because I drop my kids off. I actually have a cup of coffee that I don’t need to reheat seven times. I exercise and then I can start my day.

When I first started, I was scheduling clients eight in a row. And not taking a break and I’d call lunch a handful of nuts walking to the waiting room and still be chewing while I was going to get my client. That’s not healthy. That’s not self-care. So, I really ensure to block out some time to get up and move and eat lunch. Where I max out emotionally in terms of how many clients, I actually can serve is very different than what I could do. And I think that distinction is really important. What could I do versus what do I want to do? What feels good. And so really consolidating my week and making a decision that I only want to see 15 clients a week, 15 to 17. And I only want to work three days and I don’t schedule on days that I don’t work, which I used to just, there was no structure or schedule in that.

And I think the other piece, which I mentioned in the beginning is about these because the acknowledgement that this is our career and we have to make a sustainable living, we have to be able to not just scrape by. We need to be able to afford to live, to save for the things that are important to us, to pay for our continuing education, our malpractice. And have some breathing room. And so, in that, I think sort of the money mindset piece was also something I needed to poke holes at and explore of there’s a certain fee that I need to charge to meet my financial needs. And how do I set a schedule and set a framework that’s going to work for me and meet my financial needs? That’s how I set my fee. And I think that that’s something that feels very sticky for a lot of therapists is the money stories about if you charge more or what does that mean? I hear a lot of reasons why people think they can’t charge a higher fee.

It’s interesting because I think if you go into practice, a lot of us build our practice with our clients first. But I think what the burnout is really forced me to do is put myself first and my needs first and back my clients into it, which is just a different mindset.

Kayla: Actually, what I say is putting our needs forward, right? Because often what we’re doing is we are in the back and then we put other people’s, whether again it’s our clients or whoever’s, is in front of us. But why can’t we all go together in line? Why can’t we put ourselves forward as well? You shared a lot of really great also tips into how to manage burnout. When I started my practice, I was like, probably every other therapist listening to this episode, I fit everyone in wherever I could Monday to Friday from like 8 a. m. and go right until like 6 p. m. But it doesn’t mean that I worked all that time. It’s that like I might work 8 a. m. And then I have a two-hour break. Then another client. Then another hour break. And another client. And so, you’re working throughout the day and during those pockets of quote unquote free time I didn’t feel like I got anything done.

So, what I started doing was, I mean this sounds very systematic, but I started batching clients. Even though I still would work Monday to Friday. I would only have therapy clients from Monday to Wednesday. But I would do it from like nine and then I’d probably do two, a break, two, a break, and then I might do an extra one or two, depending on the day or whatever. And that worked because then I had Thursdays and Fridays to focus on marketing or to focus on other things. And I wasn’t having these pockets of times that I wasn’t doing anything. I always felt there was not enough time in one hour to do anything. So I was wasting more time than anything. And that really helped. Because I was making my money, but I could also have two days to focus on other things, whether it’s consults, case notes, marketing or passive income streams, because people know on this podcast, I’m all about the passive income streams.

And that’s also something else that when we think about putting ourselves forward is what’s the goal, right? Since I’ve had my daughter, I have never prioritized a person more in my life, and I love her so much. And I want to be there for everything she ever does. Whether she’s in gymnastics, whether she’s in some sort of sport. I want to be that soccer mom or whatever.

But to do that, I need to really shift, although I will say I’ve been shifting how I do business anyway, but it’s how can I work less? But still make an income, right? That’s why I love passive income, because if I want to be there, having clients Monday to Friday, back-to-back isn’t going to do it for my lifestyle. So, it’s really focusing on why are we doing what we’re doing? I mean, we might love doing what we’re doing. But we also have other things that we love just as much or more, right?

Robyn: I love that term, like put yourself forward and the idea that where we started the conversation is people are leaving their agency jobs because they are burnout, right? That’s the propelling force to go to private practice. Yet so many of us, and it sounds like you and I both did the same thing. Like we created the same. work environment that we were so desperate to leave.

And there have been times in the past where my schedule was not working. And I’d say to my husband, “Who scheduled me like this? Why did they do this?” You know, and it was me, I was the bad boss. I was the one who was making this choice. I think even in thinking about that, right. Is the unhappiness, like where people are struggling and saying, this isn’t working for me. I’m not happy working Monday through Friday. And I’m scheduling too many people. I didn’t give myself vacation. You got to stop being a crappy boss to yourself, you know, and that’s hard to hear but I also think for a lot of people that resonates like, “oh yeah, I am the boss, I am treating myself really poorly.”

Kayla: Yeah, and I think also thinking how do I do this in a way that one, helps my financial income, but two doesn’t burn me out. Because one of the things that I hear from therapists all the time is I have to do this. This is how I’m going to make money. What if a client cancels? What if I don’t get a client? Summer time tends to be a little bit slower for most therapists. so summer time I need to work in the winter non-stop just in case the summer slows down. But this is where, when we think of burnout, “it’s okay. It’s not sustainable to work overtime throughout the winter, and then you are completely burnt out for the summer.” and sure, you might get less clients, but you need that time to recover now because of that massive overtime.

Robyn: Absolutely. And I’m even just thinking back to what you said about how you’re scheduling and similar to how I do, I think it’s so important to build into your day, the admin time, the marketing time, the networking time. Because like you said, if you just have that hour, it’s like, okay, I can putz around and like scroll on Tik TOK or, you feel like that hour isn’t enough time to get things done and being really thoughtful about those things are equally as important to keeping your practice alive and well. And keeping you alive and well When I hear so often people are like, “Oh, I’m months behind on my notes” or, ” I haven’t done this. I need to do X, Y, and Z.” And even building to do list can add to your layer of burnout.

Kayla: I agree 100%. Now, I’m thinking of today’s podcast title about burnout and not learning it in grad school. I’m really curious, why do you think we don’t talk about this in grad school, even though it is so prevalent among therapists?

Robyn: My answer is actually a little cynical. Thinking about this question the first thing that came to my mind is, I don’t think they want us to know. I think if they really talked about the fact that you will likely burn out in your career would be a deterrent to a lot of therapists out there. Now, that’s likely not true. But that’s my first response is this is so important. What would be the reason?

But if I were to think of other reasons why it’s not talked about, there maybe was I think a small blurb. I have taught graduate students for a number of years at Rutgers University, and even in my classrooms, the conversation about burnout was more casual instead of an actual lesson. And in thinking about the idea of self-care, it’s just talked about in such a way that’s so flippant Like what do you do for self-care? Oh, I get a manicure. I go out for lunch. Like those things are awesome, but it’s not always about like the bubble baths and the chocolate cake. It is about the day-to-day stuff. The moment-to-moment stuff, the thinking about the scheduling and fees and. client caseload. I don’t know. What are your thoughts about why it’s not talked about?

Kayla: I’ve been thinking since you mentioned about grad schools not wanting to share it. And I’m going to play on that a little bit, it’s universities are about profit as well. Most universities are not government funded, they are there to make a profit. They are not non-for-profit organizations. So as a result, again, if they were to share that you are likely going to become burnt out as a social worker, as a therapist, or as a psychologist. How likely are you going to pay to go into that program and give them money, right? Again, I don’t want to necessarily be too cynical as well.

But I think another side of it too is, it is normalized to be burnt out as a therapist. It is so normalized that it’s expected. And as a result, it’s not talked about because that is just something you go through. That is just something you have to do if you’re caring for others. But it doesn’t have to be. And I look at burnout, one of the main contributors, now there are many, there’s external and internal reasons on why someone might be experiencing burnout. But I think one of the main pieces is, are you doing what you truly love? And you might love being a therapist. But I want to again go back to my experience. I always say, I think I went into social work for all the wrong reasons. And although I’m glad to be here today, I know that I’m very different than a lot of my social work colleagues because I’m very process driven. I’m very like systems driven. That’s why I’m a business coach, right? That’s why I give therapists. “Here is the steps so that you can do X, Y, and Z” because they’re helping people. I’m helping them help people. And I know that I’m where I need to be. But it took me a while to learn that because I was like, am I different than everyone else? Am I doing something wrong? And do I have to fit in this box? Because that is where I need to be. And I think sometimes we feel we have to fit in boxes because our supervisors tell us to or our colleagues tell us to or our professors tell us to. Or maybe no one tells us, but it’s just this unwritten rule. We don’t know where we have received it. We just feel that that is where we need to be. And I think that if we’re not doing what we truly love it’s not going to work out. But of course, there’s also the other side of we can do something we love too much. There’s still like in within moderation.

Robyn: Absolutely. And while you were just talking, I mean, I agree wholeheartedly about doing what you love and doing it in a way that reflects you and your needs and your style. And that there isn’t one right way to be a therapist. There isn’t one right way to run a practice. But I think this idea of the meta messages and these messages that are sent to us, you had said there’s an expectation. This is part of giving. This is part of being a healer.

Systematically. I think there are, and this is probably a whole other episode, but systematically, I think there’s actually a lot of meta messages, even in our code of ethics that are so client centered. This idea of you must be all giving all the time, all spaces. I most certainly I respect and understand our code of ethics and why it’s there. And there is not a lot of safeguarding for clinicians and for clinicians rights and boundaries and even in the things that are boundaried. It is very client first.

All of those mindsets of to be all giving the expectation of burnout, you know, you’re not in this for the money. All of those stories contribute to people trying to fit into the box of how do I be a good therapist. And I think it just feels so important to break down some of those barriers that you can be an excellent therapist, a caring, attuned, kind, loving, warm therapist. And be boundaried and put yourself forward, like you said,

Kayla: I love that. This makes me think of kind of the, again, this is one of the unwritten things that if you asked me who said this, I have no idea. But I remember in my undergraduate people saying you have to keep yourself at the door. It’s always the client in the room. And whoever you are has to stay at the door. But I don’t believe in that because one, the truth is the client is with you because they feel that you’re the right fit for them. And if you’re not bringing your authentic self. into the room, then you’re a robot. I mean, like you can’t be empathetic and also separate yourself from who you are versus who you’re going to show up in the room. You are the person that’s going to show up in that room.

And you’re human, right? Like I see therapists, this is specifically in like different groups that I’m a part of therapists saying, Am I allowed to tell a client this? Or what if a client asks me this? What do I say as a response? And it took me a while to learn that too. It’s, you can be honest, right? I mean, there might be some things that for your own benefit that feels like, you know what, maybe I shouldn’t say this. But if you’re having to hide who you are, your clients are going to see that and not feel safe. You’re human and they want a human in the room. They don’t want a robot.

Robyn: Oh my gosh. I could not agree more and you are the person of the therapist. Even if your theoretical framework is more leaving yourself at the door, you are still in the room. I know your listeners can’t see me, but I have a short, funky haircut and so, that’s observable. I’ve actually had clients who’ve said to me, I picked you because I saw your profile picture and you looked cool. I liked your haircut. And I thought, “well, that’s a weird thing to pick a therapist by,” but. People want connection, whether it’s a haircut or they see your style. They may notice if you’re wearing a wedding ring or not. They notice if you paint your nails. They notice what kind of clothes you’re wearing. They notice the decor in your office. They notice everything. There’s no way to 100 percent leave yourself at the door.

But what I found for myself is aligning with a model that actually encourages like a judicious use of yourself and judicious use of self-disclosure when appropriate. Because what I found was that kind of taking a back seat, leaving myself at the door was exhausting. And to then find a model that honors that and teaches people how to use it in a therapeutic way feels so good. And the feedback that I’ve gotten from my clients is, I love that you’re just you. You know, you show up and I love that you use humor or you said the most ridiculous thing and I appreciated it so much. And that there’s humanity and connection and that they’re feeling more connected and more safe because there’s a humanness.

Kayla: A hundred percent. And what you really alluded to is niching and not just niching with respect to who you work with, but also the approaches that align with you. And I would say that I’m totally that person. So, as I’ve already mentioned, which I think a lot of listeners who’ve been listening, know that I’m a very process person. I’m very steps person, I’m going to give you homework. I’m going to give you tangible things. I’m not really the person that talks about feelings a lot. And actually, in my practice, I worked with executives dealing with workplace burnout. And executives are very different people than like other types of niches, right? They want steps. They want strategies. They want to leave a session with tangible things that they can work on. They don’t talk about feelings very often, or very few of them do. And it’s because they’re very process driven people. So not only did I choose my niche because they are similar to how I show up. But I also chose my therapeutic modalities, which is CBT and ACT, which can be very useful in giving those processes, those steps, those homework. Those things that they feel like they didn’t have to talk about their feelings. It doesn’t mean that we’re never going to get to their feelings, but they want to get results first, feelings after. Not feelings first, results after. And I think that again, knowing your clients and knowing your approach can help you with that.

Robyn: Yeah. You know, in the work that I do with my clients and with the therapist, I supervise that piece of it, right? Finding a model that aligns with you. That when you use this model, you feel alive, you feel awakened. Learning any new skill. It’s a little bumpy and you may get stuck in your head, but. When you’re aligned with a model that suits you, it should feel easy. It should feel much, not effortless because most certainly you have to put in the effort, but to make you feel alive, to make you feel awakened, to feel connected to it. Because I think if you are just putting yourself in a box of, I’m supposed to do this certain model because that’s what someone told me. The work becomes so much harder.

Kayla: I agree. And I think it goes all back to internal motivation. Who are you? What do you want to see as a therapist? What approaches fit you as a therapist? And then what are you motivated to do? Because if you’re internally motivated, it energizes you. You’re going to burn out less than if it drained you every day.

Robyn: 100%. 100%. And I think that’s one of the great things about our field is you don’t need to fit into a box. You’re saying I’m very structured, I’m very processed. And I’m on the complete polar opposite. I’m somatic and experiential and trauma and like deep healing and transformation. And I’ve loved that we’re talking about the same thing from two very different perspectives.

Kayla: I agree a hundred percent. So, I know we actually talked about some of these, but are there any steps that listeners can take in their practices to help prevent burnout?

Robyn: Yeah, I mean, I think just really getting clear before you make any decisions. What are your needs and priorities? What days do you want to work? What hours do you feel good? If you’re someone who does not like scheduling clients after six o’clock and you feel tired and drained. Don’t schedule after six o’clock.

Making sure you’re building in time. In the work that I do with therapists, I actually have a, like a schedule and we like pen to paper blackout hours where it’s like, do not schedule. Reminders saying I don’t like scheduling clients here. Don’t do it. Because I think that visual versus just an arbitrary system of scheduling is really helpful. I think you have to think about your year first and work backwards. And when I say that. How many vacation days do you want? How many sick days do you want to take? And for a lot of us, we are moms. And even if you’re not, there’s national holidays where schools are closed or clients won’t schedule. You have to build that in. And so, working backwards from there, like, “okay, well, I want all of these holidays. I need sick days and I want a plethora of vacation days.” You have to account from that from the get go to work backwards to then be able to figure out how many clients you need to see a week, what your fee is. And so, I think just really, really thinking systematically about your goals and priorities and putting those things into place and then backing your clients into your framework for your practice.

And I think this goes without saying, but I’m going to say in any ways is having supervision. Having a consultation group that even 20 years into this field, I still have a supervisor. I still have my peer consultation group. There’s too much to carry and hold on to. And in our job, we don’t get to come home and talk to our spouses about our day. And it’s a strange dynamic to be working with people all day. And then at the same time, it can be very lonely. So having that network, having that support system, if you are five years in the field, if you’re 10 years, if you’re 20, 25 years. Making sure that you are not alone and you’re still processing and thinking and getting curious and being honest with the hard feelings, you know, it was so painful to tell my supervisor, I want to fire all my clients and I want to quit this field. And, you know, I was embarrassed and humbled and he was so kind you know. And so I just think that as much as like the scheduling and building your business, just really, really making sure that that piece is still connected to kind of have those checks and balances.

Kayla: Amazing. Thank you for that. And Robyn, I know you have a free resource that you’d like to share with listeners. Can you tell us a little bit about what it is and how it can help them?

Robyn: Absolutely. So the free resource is a free fee calculator, and it actually helps you to build in all of the things that I was talking about from thinking about how many vacation days, how many sick days you want. What’s your ideal number of clients per week. And it does all the math for you to figure out what is your ideal fee.

And it also actually offers if you want, because I know that this is important to many of us is to be able to offer some sliding scale fees. So you can also use that to say, well, I’d like to offer five sliding scale fees at this particular rate. And so, it gives you a framework to really identify all the pieces that need to go into your practice decisions. And then can help you set your fee in a way that’s going to help you reach those goals of setting your schedule in a way that works for you.

Kayla: Fabulous. So, to sign up for Robyn’s free fee calculator, check out kayladas.com/robynkrugmanfeecalculator

that’s kayladas.com/robynkrugmanfeecalculator

or simply scroll down to the show notes and click on the link.

Robyn, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today and sharing your experience with burnout. We really don’t talk about it enough in our field and I’m so glad we’ve had the opportunity to discuss it here today.

Robyn: Thank you so much and sounds like we have a lot of side conversations that maybe we revisit in the future.

Kayla: I think so.

Thank you everyone for tuning in to today’s episode and I hope you join me again soon on the Designer Practice Podcast.

Until next time. Bye for now.

Podcast Links

Robyn’s Free Fee Calculator: kayladas.com/robynkrugmanfeecalculator

Free Boosting Business Community: facebook.com/groups/exclusiveprivatepracticecommunity

PESI Trainings: kayladas.com/pesi

Theralist: kayladas.com/theralist

Use coupon code EVASPARE25 to receive 25% off your first year subscription.

Credits & Disclaimers

Music by ItsWatR from Pixabay

The Designer Practice Podcast and Evaspare Inc. has an affiliate and/or sponsorship relationship for advertisements in our podcast episodes. We receive commission or monetary compensation, at no extra cost to you, when you use our promotional codes and/or check out advertisement links.

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